Question?

[Another Grand]

A friend and I were talking about drag settings when high speed trolling....
The question is this......when you are high speeding you have to keep your drag at a certain level to keep the line from slipping. Lets say your drag is just enough so that the drag doesnt slip when trolling so that you know if you have weeds.

So you get the bite, and keep juicin' for a long 20 or so lookin for amigo's. When you keep going after you get the bite, are you really only getting something like +\- 5 lbs of drag on the fish due to the weight, or is the fish getting hit with +\- 15-20 lbs of drag that the reel is actually set at? (my question)

The other weekend, I could only get them to eat the yozuri's but had a horrible ratio with the plugs. There was alot of weed to deal with, so I had the drags light on all the rods. It seemed to me, that the fish were grabbing the plugs, sinking their teeth, racing off a considerable distance and then just dropping it......

I guess the solution is to just run all Wahooking's But, on that particular day, the Bonitas were getting pummeled. I know some people put an aftermarket finish on the bonitas so that the wahoo cant sink their teeth in.....is that the super secret or do you just tighten up the drags on the Bonitas?

Any insight greatly appreciated. Thanks, I suck Very frustrating.

Johnny

[Tuna Devil]

Hit em with 12-18 lbs. so the lure gets ripped out of there mouth and sets the hook if they are holding on to it. I do not hit them any harder on the troll because I think you can remove lips. I do not really no if that is true but that is what I think (I have not caught any Hoo lips).

It is just my opinion but, that is how I was taught and even that does not work all the time.

There are some other guys on here who do it much more than me. Maybe than can give some advice.

[Another Grand]

Thanks TD - I definitely had 12-18 lbs just to keep the line from slipping though

I guess the ulitmate question I am asking is:

Does the pressure from the trolling weight/lure/wire neutralize the drag on the fish and put you back at slightly over 0 lbs of pressure on the fish so long as the boat keeps going at ~15 mph or whatever speed or is the fish getting hit with the actual amount of drag that is coming off the reel.....excluding other variables of course

There is a very easy way of saying what I am trying to say, and I am sure it is a simple answer......I am just an idiot

[CaptEddie]

Try braid marauders. They have a harder shell so the wahoo cant bite in as deep and the lure slides through their mouth easier.

[Tuna Devil]

I get what you're saying. The answer is, right or wrong, if it takes 15 lbs of drag to keep the line on the reel while trolling and the fish hits it, the fish would get hit with +/- a couple lbs of drag. Not the 15 lbs the reel is set at.

[savanna lynn]

i love it when you guys think

you answerd your own question
swim plugs suck on hook up ratio they get bites but with about 30% hook up ratio i'd rather catch 95% that i get bites on
match the colors and they'll eat

[savanna lynn]

as for drag if a 40 pounder skips on the hook up you MIGHT have enough drag

[islandshark633]

I would argue that the fish will only be hit with 0 lbs of drag if it swims parallel to the boat after the hit. If it swims perpandicular to or away from the boat as they are apt to do then the full drag will be applied as fish and boat will be travelling in different directions. This is what can cause the fish's neck to break.

When wahoo speed away from the boat lures not secured near the hook will ride up the leader and stop at the snap, often resulting in a cut off by another fish. Think about that for a sec, the boat is doing 15 kts, in order for the fish to go fast enough to make the lure ride up the leader it must be travelling more than 15 kts the other way, so line must be coming off the reel at more than 30 kts..... I'd say he's experiencing the total drag setting on the reel.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

As for the swimming plugs, they have their moments, faster you go the worse they work, I don't like YoZuri's, do like Braid little speedy or braid-runners.

[cloudnine]

fish have necks?

[islandshark633]

Originally Posted by cloudnine

fish have necks?

if you prefer - Upperspinalvertibraelocatedjustbehindtheskull

better?

[Disco Lady]

Plugs! don't like them.I like double hook horse,ballyhoo and Islander lures Blue/White 12/18 sounds good on those drag.

[Tuna Devil]

Originally Posted by savanna lynn

i love it when you guys think

[quack quack]

Hit me again Ike and this time put some stank on it!!

[Harry Klauber]

I fish san Diego alot as well as the islands more often. The ONLY wahoo lures used in San Diego on the long range trips are Yozuris in Orange and Black and Purple and Black. They use the largest models. The reels are hung from the rail on straps (no rod holders) and they fish 5 lines across the stern. The crew checks all drags for a minimum setting of 24 pounds. The lures are pulled 30 feet to a maximum of 75 feet behind the boat. When a fish is hooked the boat keeps moving as the hookups are almost always multiple. They make it a point of NEVER slowing the boat down until the fish are heavily pulling line off the reels showing that they are hooked and not just chomped down on the lure. Unless you fish almost the same way (heavy drag and close to the boat to minimize line stretch) you are going to get alot of hits but you will never hook as many as with jet heads. Of course Yozuris or Marauders allow you to troll alot slower which helps with the fuel bill but you cannot back off on the drag settings or fish them way behind the boat with much success. As far as the lures getting all chewed up - not to worry - they hit them when they are little more than a shape with two hooks and no color left on them. You wouldn't believe what some of mine look like and they still work great. As the San diego crews all say a destroyed looking lure means it must have had great action to it and should be used until it conspicuously is no longer getting hit. As far as protecting the finish on them - you tell me what a wahoo can't bite through. I've never heard of anything that protects them other than having a bunch of spares.

Weeds are always a problem and can make high speed trolling tough. If you set your drags at say 22 pounds notice with just the cigar lead and lure how easy it is to pull line off the reel trolling at 15 knots with the lines in the water. You'll find it quite different than when you are just setting the drag with the rod in the holder and no line in the water. The answer to your question is that whatever the drag created by the lead and lure is has to be subtracted from your drag setting and the difference is what the fish is actually pulling. As you can see the lead and lure alone can create 10 or more pounds of pull so the fish is never getting the full drag until you almost stop the boat. Since wahoo have very tough mouths (fortunately) you can NEVER fish them with too much drag. Most of us use 80 pound test with 22-24 pounds of drag at strike to insure the best possible ratio of hits to hook-ups. If I am fishing the "local" islands (Bimini, Chub, West End) I'll stick with 80but if I am farther east - Rum Cay or San Salvidor I up the line to 100 as the average fish in those areas will be the largest of fish in the closer areas.

[e-money]

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

I fish san Diego alot as well as the islands more often. The ONLY wahoo lures used in San Diego on the long range trips are Yozuris in Orange and Black and Purple and Black. They use the largest models. The reels are hung from the rail on straps (no rod holders) and they fish 5 lines across the stern. The crew checks all drags for a minimum setting of 24 pounds. The lures are pulled 30 feet to a maximum of 75 feet behind the boat. When a fish is hooked the boat keeps moving as the hookups are almost always multiple. They make it a point of NEVER slowing the boat down until the fish are heavily pulling line off the reels showing that they are hooked and not just chomped down on the lure. Unless you fish almost the same way (heavy drag and close to the boat to minimize line stretch) you are going to get alot of hits but you will never hook as many as with jet heads. Of course Yozuris or Marauders allow you to troll alot slower which helps with the fuel bill but you cannot back off on the drag settings or fish them way behind the boat with much success. As far as the lures getting all chewed up - not to worry - they hit them when they are little more than a shape with two hooks and no color left on them. You wouldn't believe what some of mine look like and they still work great. As the San diego crews all say a destroyed looking lure means it must have had great action to it and should be used until it conspicuously is no longer getting hit. As far as protecting the finish on them - you tell me what a wahoo can't bite through. I've never heard of anything that protects them other than having a bunch of spares.

Weeds are always a problem and can make high speed trolling tough. If you set your drags at say 22 pounds notice with just the cigar lead and lure how easy it is to pull line off the reel trolling at 15 knots with the lines in the water. You'll find it quite different than when you are just setting the drag with the rod in the holder and no line in the water. The answer to your question is that whatever the drag created by the lead and lure is has to be subtracted from your drag setting and the difference is what the fish is actually pulling. As you can see the lead and lure alone can create 10 or more pounds of pull so the fish is never getting the full drag until you almost stop the boat. Since wahoo have very tough mouths (fortunately) you can NEVER fish them with too much drag. Most of us use 80 pound test with 22-24 pounds of drag at strike to insure the best possible ratio of hits to hook-ups. If I am fishing the "local" islands (Bimini, Chub, West End) I'll stick with 80but if I am farther east - Rum Cay or San Salvidor I up the line to 100 as the average fish in those areas will be the largest of fish in the closer areas.

Harry, I have been following your recent posts & you have been dead on.

Johnny, IMHO it is a tricky / fine line between too much & too little drag.
We set the 80W drags at 24lbs at strike, and will sometimes back it off a little depending on the lead / lure & speed due to sea conditions.

1 for 7 huh

[swordstalker]

Harry / E $, AG forgot to mention we were using cable shock leaders on those Yozuris. I'd like your thoughts on that.......

[e-money]

Originally Posted by swordstalker

Harry / E $, AG forgot to mention we were using cable shock leaders on those Yozuris. I'd like your thoughts on that.......

Some prefer mono shocks, some prefer cable shocks. I prefer cable shocks on mono outfits & mono shocks on wire outfits as a general rule.

I believe the thought process is that if you use cable shocks on wire out-fits, it leaves little to no room for shock / stretch & some claim you can get electrolysis if you don't "break" that wire connection.

Sometimes they just grab the lure sideways & hold it like a dog w a stick in his mouth. If you set drag too tight, you can pull the hook, or break him off. Too loose & he is likely to leave some teeth marks & not wind up in the box, Catch 22

[Another Grand]

Harry,

That was exactly along the lines that I was thinking.....you answered my question with the answer I wanted to hear and I agree with you.

The obvious answer was that my drags werent heavy enough......that short Yozuri was getting pummeled every time. The other problem was that the reel I kept short had a sticky drag, so the inertia to pull it out at first was much greater than the actual drag once the spool was moving and Newton's Law that rod got tagged about 5 or 6 times.

Eric, it was more like 1/9. The fish seemed to striking out of annoyance rather than because they were "chewin" but that is just an excuse I guess.....we only had a short trip and really only had one good tide change right when we got there and thats when we bagged our sole fish of the day.

Point is I suck.....our Captain was putting us on the fish.

[Another Grand]

Eric, I like your theory with the shocks.....

My other question for the wahoo heads regards "shorty" rods.....

I wanted to build two for my 100' and 150' .....all the ones I see are built on broomstick blanks with no give.......would it not be better to have a faster tip, or at least some give on those rods since you are compromising the rod.....or am I an idiot. I know you want to keep the angle low to the water, but I was also toying with the idea of a short straight butt and a faster tip.

Do you guys like those shorties, dislike them, or think that the stiff blank is or is not the way to go?

Thanks for the advice.....trying to get tuned in.

Johnny

[e-money]

Originally Posted by Another Grand

Harry,

That was exactly along the lines that I was thinking.....you answered my question with the answer I wanted to hear and I agree with you.

The obvious answer was that my drags werent heavy enough......that short Yozuri was getting pummeled every time. The other problem was that the reel I kept short had a sticky drag, so the inertia to pull it out at first was much greater than the actual drag once the spool was moving and Newton's Law that rod got tagged about 5 or 6 times.

Eric, it was more like 1/9. The fish seemed to striking out of annoyance rather than because they were "chewin" but that is just an excuse I guess.....we only had a short trip and really only had one good tide change right when we got there and thats when we bagged our sole fish of the day.

Point is I suck.....our Captain was putting us on the fish.

Johnny, I hear ya. If you are talking about the Int'l 80 you had loaned Coop, I made the exec decision to pull it from production on our trip due to sticky drag you described. IMHO a smooth drag is essential. FYI, Penn has a GREAT DURA-DRAG system & I just had one of my 80's re-built w new drag, and it is like "butta". Perhaps the best $150 I have spent this year.


PS: you bring up a good point. Im my experience, the bite is often keyed in on a specific position. IE Some days they are tagging the longest bait & we catch em one at a time, while others, it's all about the shortest wire rod in the spread. Debate is healthy & hoping to put some of this to good work in big wahoo tourney next week.