Food for thought......

[Another Grand]

Risktaker,

I posted that article up here a couple of months ago. You are right on, it is a great read.

I dont like the way the thread went either, I didnt intend for a debate. If anybody wants to respond to Vinny please try to do so in a respectful way. I apologize that the thread wasnt posted on conservation forum.

That cartoon is hilarious.....

[RiskTaker]

Johnny:

My subscription to National Geographic expired, so I have been missing out on all the great reads NGM compiles. You're right this is a very important article, that could potentially shift the fishing paradigm, providing we don't let it die as just another ordinary post.

Here it is again: National Geographic Magazine

And a link to your thread: Great Article in National Geographic

Maybe, I was just having a vacation time retrospective, Or Maybe not!

But I really think we must start putting a lot of forum discussion and debate on this exact subject matter. And the funny thing about it: it involves all people that have a stake in removing fish/marine products from the oceans. Oh, aren't we just being silly now: teamwork and collaboration, oh how can that be with some of our track records. (No pointing at anyone). We do need to start establishing preserves, around the world and especially in the good ole US of A. The definition of preserve can be up to us to define what it means and how/duration it applies, and it should vary from place to place. But it must be done, to salvage the Ecosytems of the seas, before it is irreparably destroyed within our/children's lifetimes.

That article indicated a globally escalating pressure on fish and a diminishing reserve in the oceans, not to mention some deteriorating habitats for "Ecosystems". The story about the Southern Bluefin Tuna depletion and the imminent peril of the Mediterranean stock of Bluefin Tuna, is sounding a five alarm, fire bell in my ears. It is really that serious! To some of the better informed it is just more preaching to the choir. But we all encounter similar things at various points in our journey, so it is OK to bring it up again, from another person's perspective. We need to gett'er done: and I hope so in my useful lifetime.

I would just wish us Florida good ole boys can get it together and not let California get all the credit for pro-active marine Ecosystem responsibility. We have our fair chance shot at it just the same. Everybody can join in for a share of the credit, no matter where you are from. Just a pep talk for our local anglers and a challenge to engage.

It was certainly depressing and also refreshing to do some shallow reef fishing off Big Pine Key this past week. We fished one sunset evening and caught a whole bunch of yellowtail and other species. The only problem was that very few yellow tail were keepers. Another day, we went to Looe Key Sanctuary Reef for a mid-afternoon visit. I happened to apply some of the same chumming techniques, as if you intended to catch fish. And MY GOD, you would have just gone fishing-slap-happy-drunk to see all of the yellowtail that showed up, big flags too. Jump overboard and view the bottom with a mask and snorkel/regulator: you could see numerous grouper checking out the scene: Nausau grouper and gag grouper and other big predators too. A preserve can enable all of this: unfortunately to say, I did not happen to enjoy the spill-over effect to nearby areas. (I do reserve to comment that we were not able to fish on known good spots; unfortunately, a commercial vessel beat us to the spot we had intended to fish, so we missed that important location, by just 200 yards or so, but still on bumpy bootom.)

Stay tuned for more on this in subject matter in the Conservation forum area.

I missed the Swordfishing tournament too. I like to fish them too but you can't do everything all at once.

[Captain Ollie]

RT, there are already enough protected areas here already......Biscayne National Park, Pennecamp, all the various "bouyed off" SPA's in the Keys, Looe Key, not to mention most of the Tortugas is now protected.

Suggesting anymore such areas, especially in our neck of the woods, is just plain ridiculous. Its congested enough as it is out here, without turning vast areas near densely populated areas into no fishing zones.

You mentioned the groupers you saw in Looe Key.....just diving today I saw 10 black groupers during the course of the 3 tanks I did today. Two of which were better than 60 pounds and the rest were 25 to 40. Too many muttons 10 to 15 pounds to count.....not to mention the schools of tails. AND....AND had it been lobster season I could have easily put several hundred pounds in the boat. All this within 3 miles of Haulover inlet.

SO PLEASE DON'T TELL ME WE NEED TO SHUT DOWN VAST AREAS OF OUR OWN BACKYARDS BECASUSE SOME TREE HUGGING, GRANOLA EATING, FERRET PETTING, GERBIL BANGER SAYS THERE'S SOME SORT OF LACK OF FISH WHEN I SEE WHAT I SEE ALL THE TIME.

[The BEAST]

Vinnie,

I'm not trying to twist things, really! I have refrained from posting, intentionally because this issue has been hashed and rehashed and we have beaten the dead horse until it looks like a door mat. Same old Sh*t, new day!

But really man, you must release this cockamamy dirty hands theory. Your reasoning... a 400 pound man and a 90 pound lady sit down at a table. There is a pie in the middle of that table. The poor lady gets 2 bites as the man devours the rest. She calls him a glutton and rightfully so but in your eyes she has no right to do this. She has "dirty hands" because she ate 2 bites out of the entire pie.

How ludicrous is your method of thinking? It is insulting to think you believe we are that gullible. Obviously, you have run out of valid reasons and are grasping for straws now.

Over and out!

[RiskTaker]

Ollie:

Hold on, and repeat as needed, with your good opines, for a good discussion of the subject matter, on a better forum post. Granted, it is extremely controversial subject matter.

I haven't said we need to close down vast amounts of space right here in our back/front yards.

But the real fact of the matter remains that we need more preserve space statewide, nationally and globally to balance the equation: ie. a little bit more that .01% globally, is necessary to do so effectively: 20% and we are leaders in our community, a big differentiator from among the apathetic.

Perhaps in South Florida, we may have sufficient preserve space allocated already... but until the statistics indicate properly we may need more preserved spaces set aside to the point that a reasonable percentage of the habitat can recuperate and provide benchmarks over time.

It is good subject matter to discuss among fishermen, to most effectively address the situation in the proper perspective. I do have to admit that I have eaten granola before, but I do not have any ferrets or Gerbils. And I do love to fish and harvest fish, crawfish, mollusks, stone crab and other fruits of the sea. I would also like to eat more Toro (Fatty Bluefin Tuna Belly) but still preserve sufficient supply for my children and their kids.

Did you read the NGS Special report already? If not, please do and continue your opinion/observations from your perspective as the issue resurfaces.

[miamiangler1]

Originally Posted by Captain Ollie

RT, there are already enough protected areas here already......Biscayne National Park, Pennecamp, all the various "bouyed off" SPA's in the Keys, Looe Key, not to mention most of the Tortugas is now protected.

Suggesting anymore such areas, especially in our neck of the woods, is just plain ridiculous. Its congested enough as it is out here, without turning vast areas near densely populated areas into no fishing zones.

You mentioned the groupers you saw in Looe Key.....just diving today I saw 10 black groupers during the course of the 3 tanks I did today. Two of which were better than 60 pounds and the rest were 25 to 40. Too many muttons 10 to 15 pounds to count.....not to mention the schools of tails. AND....AND had it been lobster season I could have easily put several hundred pounds in the boat. All this within 3 miles of Haulover inlet.

SO PLEASE DON'T TELL ME WE NEED TO SHUT DOWN VAST AREAS OF OUR OWN BACKYARDS BECASUSE SOME TREE HUGGING, GRANOLA EATING, FERRET PETTING, GERBIL BANGER SAYS THERE'S SOME SORT OF LACK OF FISH WHEN I SEE WHAT I SEE ALL THE TIME.

Well put Another Grand and Capt Ollie... Please PM me the spots where you saw the muttons Rather see bouy gear then PLL gear in my backyard ... as for Vinnie ... he dosent like me anyway ... and I DONT CARE! commercial PLL= BAD

Vinnie Please list your ten reasons:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10

Maybe you can change my mind
I may have blood on my hand , but make every effort to release any FISH. unharmed be it a sword or grunt !

[islandshark633]

the difference between one longliner and 96 boats putting equal number of hooks in the water is-

each of the 96 boats tends an average of 5.2 hooks and immediately deals with a hooked fish, be it rat, keeper, by-catch, whatever. Keeping or releasing as required. By catch mortality and mud darts kept to the minimum by the simple fact that the fish is dealt with immediately, not hours later.

the longliner sets 500 hooks, waits several hours while tending none of them, pulls up whatever is hooked, keeps the keepers and tosses, sorry, releases what it can not sell. Dead by catch, mud darts etc are left to their own devices.

Every fisherman has blood on his hands, sure, the trick is to keep it to a minimum, right? Longlining was permanently banned in the Bahamas 30 years ago.

[miamiangler1]

-
Longlining was permanently banned in the Bahamas 30 years ago.[/quote]

That`s why the fishing is fantastic in the Bahamas ! now if only they would change the 20# bottom fish.per boat to per person I could live with that !

[Flatsfish B]

Originally Posted by Captain Ollie

BECASUSE SOME TREE HUGGING, GRANOLA EATING, FERRET PETTING, GERBIL BANGER SAYS .

[CaptKen]

Heres some food for thought:

almost 100 boats and only 5 fish above 130 lbs

Think what it would have been in 1970 with 100 boats ??

perhaps 25 fish over 250 lbs ? who knows ?

All I can say is We MUST KEEP the longliners OUT or we can kiss it good bye once again !

[tunaman81]

Originally Posted by Another Grand

96 boats in the tournament = around 500 baited hooks in the water.

500 = the approximate number of baited hooks on 1 longline set

I know some of you that were in the fleet looked around last night and thought, how is a fish going to swim through this mess to get to me. Imagine if there were 10-20 longline boats fishing in the straights......not subject to the weather like we are, not subject to angler error.

Puts everything in perspective doesnt it?

Anyways, just some food for thought..... We need to realize how great of a resource we have out there.

Johnny

Just thought I'd point out that the area in question for the reopening of PLL is NOT in the Florida Straits. It is about 60 miles offshore of Ft. Pierce on the eastern edge of the Gulf Stream and North of that area.

Ollie...NOT cool. I had a pet ferret and they rock.

Now for my food for thought moment:

People have been talking about recreational fisherman needing to take responsibility for their actions. I absolutely agree with Broadbill Pro: if you put a hook in the water you need to share the responsibility. Now, it is true for the most part that recreational fisherman have a much less impact on stocks than commercial fisherman, however, that does not absolve rec fisherman of responsibility.

This includes releasing a fish in the best possible condition. I hear a lot of people comment that marlin and sails caught on longlines are usually released in poor condition and probably die. However, you then see plenty of recreational fisherman pulling sails and small blue and white marlin out of the water into the boat for a photo...tearing fins, removing slime and then putting the fish back in and calling it a "healthy" release. It absolutely is not. When you remove a billfish that you intend to release from the water (which is ILLEGAL might I add), you greatly reduce it's chance at survival (and this includes sub legal swordfish as well). Granted it takes place on a much larger scale during longlining, but that is no excuse to not take every possible precaution to release the fish you catch with the best possible chance of survival. If you don't (ie. remove sails and marlin from the water prior to release), don't complain about longliner's poor release methods.

Responsibility also includes following the law, regardless of whether or not you think it is reasonable. Fisherman need to comply with the regulations that are put in place. Many rec swordfisherman made the fight against allowing longliners back in to the closed area off Ft. Pierce a lot more difficult by not following the rules. This includes not reporting fish. Many people still do not report their fish. This will only hurt us in the long run. This also includes other illegal activities that I will not mention. Illegal activities hurt everyone.

Regardless of how you feel on the whole commercial vs. recreational fight, you need to be responsible in your actions while you are fishing.

My 0.02.

[islandshark633]

Originally Posted by miamiangler1

-
Longlining was permanently banned in the Bahamas 30 years ago.

That`s why the fishing is fantastic in the Bahamas ! now if only they would change the 20# bottom fish.per boat to per person I could live with that ![/quote]

they will change it, there is even a non governmental panel of knowedgable individuals being assembled to advise the new minister on rec limits and future fisheries management. Looks like maybe some comon sense came with the new gov't!! It helps when the new prime minister is a dedicated deep dropper who loves taking foreign dignitaries fishing and the 20# limit puts a stop to that.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Johnny,

I did not intend to point the finger at you, but your post did not include the damage that we recreational fisherman do (a view only expressed by a few on here). It is easy to continually sling mud in one direction, I am here to let everyone know that it is a mud fight and both sides are dirty.

As for me being a lobbyist. I can tell you that I have had NO formal meetings with the commercial sector, my current connection with the LL industry is limited to a few personal friends and is on a social basis only. Unlike my participation with the recreational sector which I have been invited to sit in on several gatherings. My opinion is based on what I believe to be the truth, an opinion that few can understand unless they have spent 25 years at sea chasing swords and tuna.

I get no thank you from the LL'ers I defend and have been vocal about their silence. I am proud of the way I earned an living for so many years and know that I did it with respect for the species that I targeted.

I suppose the largest separation between us is that I see the need for a commercial industry. When I look at a commercial vessel I see 300 million Americans on deck and you only see the crew.

As for the 10 reasons, each one will be picked apart by Jim and the rest of the posse. I understand how fishing gear performs when deployed, I can assure you that 1 + 1 does not equal 2 in regard to hooks set.

If you really want to learn about PLL gear, I will be happy to sit at the pub and share some interesting sea stories with you.

[Captain Juan]

Fishing is fantastic in the Bahamas Miami Angler?

C'mon.

It may be a little better but it's not fantastic. Stocks have definitely been depleted and it's not because of pressure from South Florida anglers. It's because of the Bahamians themselves. These guys are dropping fish traps up and down the bank. Been to Orange Cay lately? It's a freakin maze of fish traps. In fact, I was there late last year trying to navigate the buoys and this beat up Bahamian trap boat starts circling us as if to intimidate us. I gave them a one finger salute and thanked them for all the fish traps.

I used to fish Isaac heavily to the North and the Riding Rocks and the Oranges to the south of Bimini going back to the 1970s. I have seen a steady and disturbing decline in bottom fishing over the last 15 years because of the indiscriminate fish trap harvest perpetuated by the Bahamians. I mostly deep jig off the drop for black and red grouper, mutton, black and button snapper, and some other species, and while we used to catch several quality fish and always within the previous limits, your now lucky to catch a nice grouper and/or mutton on every trip. In fact, I have given up on the Oranges that were so productive years ago. I have also given up on the Bahamas and their hypocritical fish regs. Anywhere you go in the Bahamas you're always approached by the locals with offers to sell you fish, conch, and lobster regardless of season or size.

Don't get me wrong, pelagic fishing is still pretty good, but bottom fishing and overall fishing in the Bahamas is far from fantastic.

I for one aint going anymore and will continue focusing on my original stomping grounds in the Keys. I am fired up about the Bahamas.

High tides

J

[bajakian]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Johnny,

I did not intend to point the finger at you, but your post did not include the damage that we recreational fisherman do (a view only expressed by a few on here). It is easy to continually sling mud in one direction, I am here to let everyone know that it is a mud fight and both sides are dirty.

As for me being a lobbyist. I can tell you that I have had NO formal meetings with the commercial sector, my current connection with the LL industry is limited to a few personal friends and is on a social basis only. Unlike my participation with the recreational sector which I have been invited to sit in on several gatherings. My opinion is based on what I believe to be the truth, an opinion that few can understand unless they have spent 25 years at sea chasing swords and tuna.

I get no thank you from the LL'ers I defend and have been vocal about their silence. I am proud of the way I earned an living for so many years and know that I did it with respect for the species that I targeted.

I suppose the largest separation between us is that I see the need for a commercial industry. When I look at a commercial vessel I see 300 million Americans on deck and you only see the crew.

As for the 10 reasons, each one will be picked apart by Jim and the rest of the posse. I understand how fishing gear performs when deployed, I can assure you that 1 + 1 does not equal 2 in regard to hooks set.

If you really want to learn about PLL gear, I will be happy to sit at the pub and share some interesting sea stories with you.

I am in for that anytime.

[Nick C]

Originally Posted by Captain Ollie

SO PLEASE DON'T TELL ME WE NEED TO SHUT DOWN VAST AREAS OF OUR OWN BACKYARDS BECASUSE SOME TREE HUGGING, GRANOLA EATING, FERRET PETTING, GERBIL BANGER SAYS THERE'S SOME SORT OF LACK OF FISH WHEN I SEE WHAT I SEE ALL THE TIME.

Holy chit

[NightCrawler]

here's some food for thought...reported a fish May 15 and got confirmation #1579 Last friday June 15, we got a 62 incher and got confirmation #1605. This past friday june 22 reported a fish and got #1618. A month period 26 fish, last week 13 fish. There's no freakin way, for waters from MAIN to TEXAS
We agree that LL have no place in this nursery, but I think the US commercial fleet does a better job at abiding by laws and regulations than any other fleet in the world AND rec swordfisherman included

I know i know, the bite's been off, the weather's been bad, blah blah blah.

[CaptKen]

Captain Juan
If you knew the story behind all those fish traps you speak of, how they were funded, where they came from, how they got there, where the fish was sold, etc, etc, ect, It would just blow your mind !

[Captain Juan]

Cap K

I can only imagine. Let me guess, they were funded by US based, more specifically, South Florida fish houses/wholesellers and sold right here. Whatever the reason, the Bahamians abided. Please share the backgorund info you have. I hate to stray from the longlining topic, though. It's just that our friend Miami Angler's post struck me.

By the way, even deep dropping has slowed down in recent years in the Bahamas. Yeah, occassionally, we've had some good drops for silks, queens, grouper, even wreckfish, but the fish have been tougher and tougher to find.

I remember the days when, without any numbers and spots, you'd drop right off Bimini or Gun Cay and bring up rigs with fish on each hook. If you were a jerk you could drop all day and fill the boat. If you were cool, you'd make a couple drops and have plenty of cooler stuffers around the nice kings, wahoo, the one or two cobia from Sylvia or the airplane wreck, the two nice blacks, etc. Unfortunately, that's not the case at least off the west side of the bank. I know there are still some good spots off Andros, the Exumas, and farther but you have to burn gas far and it makes no sense with the limits.

It's a shame.

J

[Another Grand]

For whats it worth....I was simply trying put things into perspective. When are there ever 96 boats out front on a given night. That is alot of boats, and even so the fishing pressure on that night by the recs does still not equal or is just equal to one longline set. No other argument was made, I was simply making a point, or moreso stating an opinion.

Nobody on here has ever said that we are innocent of killing any fish. Vinnie find a post and show me where anything anybody said could even be interpretted as that. As far as fish not being reported, the day Noaa or you guys shows me a picture of a fish that hasnt been reported instead of just ranting about it, what is the point of making the accusations, you are not changing the people that dont report and you are fueling their argument that we are not reporting. We have been waiting for an online system for how many years? In my opinion, the system is to blame but that just sounds like a cop out so I am just throwing it out there as my opinion. We could have that site built in a few days for less than a $1000 and offered to pay for it, but apparently they are under contract with somebody since 2002.

Vinnie, I would enjoy sitting down at the pub sometime. Maybe you will come down and bring your family to the IGFA on July 21st, fully catered drinks on me.