swordfishing what do you think

[PUMPKINEATER]

Unfortunately there appears to be a misunderstanding amongst the swordfishing community regarding the SAIL Club's Swordfish satellite tagging program.

The SAIL Club was able to raise enough money, as Arthur stated, to purchase 3 PSAT tags and the club will be working with Dr. Prince to deploy these tags in the very near future (we are just waiting for the permits).

But this was accomplished with the help and donations of many (both in time and money) by individuals, vendors and/or sponsors, other clubs (including the SESC) and through the Swordfish Tournament we had in October 2005.

Some SAIL members also belong to the SESC and vice versa. Some of these same individuals helped us last year and are still helping us with this very worthy project and we appreciate everyone's combined effort to make this happen.

I commend and support the SESC for its efforts regarding their Financial Impact study. I think this is another integral part of the bigger picture.

Looks like there are several really good ideas being posted and that's great. Keep 'em coming!

Steve

[RiskTaker]

Thanks Steve, for clarifying that.

Yeah, it seemed like there was some money building up for a PSAT(s), I just hadn't heard anything about a tag purchase yet, from the SESC meetings. Good update.

It is very impressive to see how all that data comes together, with a little bit of help from the scientists processing the data.

By the way, what if someone catches the fish with a PSAT tag? Is there any type of incentive to encourage the release of the fish? (ie. record a serial number and report that for a $100 reward, just a hypothetical example) I suspect most recreational guys would want to keep a good size fish and simply return the tag. But with only 3 tags being deployed from this endeavour, it seems like you would want to maximize the time on the same fish.

Any comments on that?

[Ron.38 Special]

The S.A.I.L. club has raised $$ to buy 3 tags and will start tagging
swords this spring with Eric Prince's group. We can use more $$ for
more tags. Unfortunately, the SESC no longer has this as a priority
item, and one of their members got up at a meeting and made a number
of inaccurate statements about the benefits of satellite tags. cheers, arthur[/quote]

O' Professor..........

Please my esteemed fellow scientist,

I wish you would please not speak for a club where you hardly ever make a meeting. The SESC is very proud to be a sponsor of the satellite tags which the Sail club has initiated. We believe the tags have a great benefit to the understanding of swordfish.

But.......

I believe that many times, great conclusions are often made with very little data and often in fisheries science, we spend a fraction on the actual data collection compared to the effort given to statistical manipulation of the data.

For example if we put a satellite tag on you, could we assume that your movements and actions speak for the human race? I think not.

The SESC sees that the Sail club, motivated and led by the efforts of Steve and Ali, has spearheaded a program to do a nice number of tags off our coast, and some very interesting information will be gained from that data.

But, again.....

If we have another attempt by the Blue Water Fishermans Association to open up the closed zone of the Florida Straits to longlining again, we will need some very strong economic data to fight that move and show the importance of the recreational fishery to the marine economy of South Florida. Money talks, and we need to show politicians and government officials that we need this fishery to continue to be protected in the way that only the closed zone can accomplish.

Tagging information will not accomplish our goal, and the SESC feels that we do not need to duplicate the efforts of Sail, however we support it in a very strong way.

We do believe that the SESC can best influence NMFS, and our political contacts in congress with a strong economic report to show what the closed zone has done to both the fishery and economic engine which drives South Florida marine economy.

Very few of the members of this forum remember the boom and bust of the 70's but a few of us "old guys" remember very well what we had and how fast we lost it when longlining first took over the Straits.

Rather than fight with us, you should take note of our position where we support both Sail efforts and realize the importance of spearheading the economic study, that may be the only thing that saves our fishery from certain attack.

In fact, after our discusion at the Sail meeting, I sent notes to several people to get them to consider a proposal from you and your fellow professors at UM to do the economic study since UM has a better understanding of the local fishery. In addition, several members of SESC expressed a preference for a UM study vs Texas A & M.

Where is your proposal you promised me, where is the email you were to send me to get in touch with the proper contacts at UM????????
You question club decisions, but you choose not to participate.

SESC strongly supports the tagging efforts and since Sail has a great handle on this effort, we will continue to focus on the economic study, while supporting your clubs efforts

As for the data from the tags, just don't draw too many conclusions until a good representative sample is taken. And, that number is not 5 or 10 or even 50 tags.

But I am as interested as all of us to see where those fish go after they are released. But I'm also very interested in finding out how big the impact is to our marine economy since I can better lobby for the fishery with this data.

If you are interested in further discussing this matter, I would welcome a spirited conversation on both the Economic Impact, and tagging importance in fisheries science. You know how to contact me.

[dring]

i was just in fla on vacation and fished with drew and arie set up by bobby boyle. the canadian goverment last summer did some sat tagging using harpoon boats and planes, i believe they stuck 16 large females 500 pounds or bigger the tags are supposed to pop up soon. i have friends who have been awarded some of these grants in gloucester look in national fisherman. if you want pm me and i might be able to give a few names to get you started .

[Another Grand]

QQ.....I mentioned this same thought and idea a little while back and fully endorse it. I think it should be mandatory to tag fish you release. We are looking at catch and recatch data and this would provide valuabe information for all about the population of fish that travel in the straights. It would be easy and effective and no club is needed.

Satellite tags in my honest opinion are great and through these clubs they should be initiated......I hope the info is used for the right reason. I believe it is vital to have satellite tags, what difference does it make if we show the economic impact we have and are protecting fish in the straights, but our fish can get hammered by LL somewhere else and satellite tags would give a better understanding of where exactly the main body of fish is moving. If we put a tag on Professor O and a couple other random people, his actions and movements may not represent the human race, but by tagging him everyday we would have a better understanding of what occurs by finding the similarities in their actions and these similarities are what we are looking for. This is Science.

The SESC is great, I have only been to one meeting, and I will never go to another but I support their efforts and believe that the data they are collecting is crucial, because in the end, the only thing that anybody in the government cares about is money.

This is a collective effort, it sounds like it is working out perfectly, despite a few misunderstandings.

[Another Grand]

I had another idea, which I believe would raise money and help us all out but I am not sure if it is feasible and cannot get a respone.

Why can we not start a nonprofit "Swordfish Foundation" or whatnot. Since everybody pretty much fishes together, things are expensive, and we all throw in for gas. Instead there would be a flat fee that everybody involded throw $50 dollars(or whatever) on gas and a portionof the total ( maybe 20%) gets donated. You get a reciept from the capt of the boats participating so that you are able to write off on your taxes and a great deal of money is raised considering how expensive gas is and how much some of us go fishing, plus it will come back to you in April. Maybe 1 to many whistles for me , is this not feasible?

Just an idea to help raise money

Johnny

[Darkside]

Johhny the importance of a economic impact is very important. You mention how much money everybody spends going out swording, well if the rec. sectors brings 20 million a year to the economy and the LL only bring 10 well which is more of a benefit to the local vendors. Yes satelite tags are going to tell us were the fish swim once they are released, but we won't be the only ones to get that info. I know i won't be running 120 miles off NC to put out my spread but some boats will and they won't have rods on board they will have spools on board. Both programs are going to benefit the fishery and hopefully we will be able to put some tags in some quality fish and find out were they go. One last thing Johnny you had said the only thing the GOV. is concerned with is $, well if we can prove that more money is brought into the local economy by the rec. then they will have to keep the closed zone closed!

[Broadbill-Pro]

this is not popular opinion, but you guys are going to tag and report yourselves out of a fishery. 25 years of catch reports and tagging have shot commercial interests in the ass. do you really believe that ICCAT as well as federal and/or state policy makers are going to conclude in some way that rec fishing is not harmful to stocks? especially in an area where a migratory pattern within a near coastal area is concerned? the more proof that they have that this is a stratigic throughway for migration the more basis they will have to close you out.

all this BS about economic impact is ridiculas. what are your real concerns? for the health of the swordfish stock or just the ability to continue catching them. i have read hundreds of posts on this site and have yet to believe that a single conservationist exists here. what exists here is an overwhelming effort to protect a rec. fishery in your backyard from commercial fisherman, nothing more.

recs. are in a difficult position, your living off of historical catch data that you did not establish. the truth is that without LL'ers catch data the US quota will be cut to nothing. even if every rec. fish caught was reported it would not enable the future US quota to withstand a 12 month open season.

economic impact means nothing to ICCAT. the amount of revenue that commercial longlining generates overseas is a thousand fold what is spent here. unfortunatly a US citizen sitting in ohio has as much of a right to this stock of fish as you or me and if the only way for them to have access to that right is through commercial landings that sell to markets in their area then that must be considered a dollar in the commercial corner.

in no way could it be proven that the benefit to the local economy in regard to swordfishing could match that of the amounts generated by the process of commercial vessel expenses, freight whether it be truck or plane, fish broker, fork lift driver, restaurant, etc., etc. sure if all the commercial vessels are gone, then you have econmic impact on your side, not really a fair fight though.

Warning !! be careful how much information you give, unless you are a true conservationist. :shock: i don't see any.

Dear Ron and everyone else on this thread, I speak for myself and not
for any club. I'm not fighting anybody, all I am doing is stating my
opinion. Pumpkineater has clearly stated the contributions of both
clubs to the upcoming tagging program.

I've attended over 1/2 of the SESC's meetings since I've joined the club;
I wish I could attend more but work and parental obligations make this difficult.
I've really enjoyed all the meetings that I am able to attend,
and I've met a number of great people at these meetings. As soon as
this semester is over, it will be easier for me to attend the meetings again.

I am dissappointed that the SESC did not follow through with some earlier intentions to be a major player, not just a strong supporter, in satellite tagging of swordfish. I strongly believe that this decision was made based on inaccurate information. For example, statements such as "1000 satellite tags will tell us nothing" was presented to the SESC membership at a meeting. I'm sorry I don't deal well with BS. Most statisticians, based on Fisher, would say that 20 samples are needed for confidence. The one tagged fish Dr. Prince showed results for off of Miami spent most of its time in water deeper than most of us ever fish! I also believe that it is healthy to have spirited and positive discussions on all of the major issues related to swordfishing on this board. A number of excellent suggestions are already in this thread and I expect many more from this community.

Ron, I'm sorry I dropped the ball on the UM contacts, but I've been extremely busy at work and I've never received any notes from you. An email or phone call is the best way to get me to do something. Thanks for the reminder. Since a number of environmental groups have made this open season on recreational fishing, an impact statement may be a double
edge sword as Broadbill-Pro has just posted.

Quack-quack, let's get together with steve, ray, and other who are
now involved in the tagging project to discuss your plans. Another
Grand, a couple of folks have started a discussion on a foundation,
maybe someone will say something. cheers, arthur

[Rod Chucker]

i once asked this forum why reporting our sword catches was important. im really not an idiot, i just didnt know and wanted to learn.

no one responded. i figured that was because no one wanted to take the time to try to explain a complicated issue. now i think it was because no one really knows the answer.

i researched ICCATs website for an hour or so today. i found that the qoutas have declined for every member nation over the last 15 years or so. it says that thats because they are trying to establish a "maximum sustainable yield". well, they must not have gotten to that point yet because the quotas are still dropping every year, and the species is still dwindeling in both the N and S atlantics.

the LL crews were forced out of this area because the gear tended to kill pups and other non targeted species, NOT because anyone felt that the LL crews were taking too many fish. thats why they tried to weasel they're way back in here last year with "experimental less lethal gear".

I agree with Broadbill. why would the LL interests NOT use our catch data as ammo to lobby theyre way back into this area?

I dont agree with Broadbill on alot of what he said. I think that the rec. economic impact is WAY more than comm. and I could care less about joe blow from idaho getting to eat a swordie steak when he feels like it. let him go out and spend a few nights drifting around the 50 without a bite and then i'll agree he deserves a steak. I still think that the fishery would benefit worldwide if LL gear was outlawed PERIOD, but someone please tell me how reporting our catches PROTECTS this area from LLs!

[quack quack]

Chucker you may not like commercial fishing but it is a fact of life and how over 60% of the worlds population gets ther protein.So stop thinking global and lets focus on our little part of the ocean.I do not know what a eco study would do at ICCAT but it could have some effect on nmfs.The more I think about it the more I am sure they should not let any LL boats in to do any experimental fishing.Only bad things can come of it.If they show they can release more pups and have less bycatch they will be back in here in the blink of an eye.For every 100 people on this forum maybe 1 is a true concervationist and know I am not that 1.I wish to protect my interests in this local rec fishery.I will admit it I want them for us.But we can not be ignorant of the other factors that are out there.

[Rod Chucker]

yeah, im with you on that Q, but ur wrong about one thing. its not commercial fishing that i dont like. its the way its not being regulated in a way that can actually help protect fish stocks instead of just killing as much as possible to make as much money as possible.

and i like commercial fishermen just as much as my rec. fishing buddies. i appreciate Rays Live Bait being in the cut on my way out as much as the next guy. i eat alot of products that are provided by comm. fishermen.

like you, i may not be a true conservationist, if i was, i guess i'd have no passion for doing battle and killing and eating swords, but its just real disturbing to me that some people could care less about the future generations being able to enjoy what i love doing so much.

i also agree that we should do anything we can do keep the LL gear out of here, the question is though, what can we do?

ive heard tag em, dont tag em, report em, dont report em, dont kill small fish, no thats OK, dont kill large breeders!

confusing.

[Disco Lady]

CONO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

[Broadbill-Pro]

i appreciate the honesty of QQ and Chucker in regard to their true motive for contributions here. suppose i am a little bitter at the fact that for many years the same people that are now only worried about protecting their own backyard are the ones who fought in the name of global conservation just a fews years ago. if you have doubts dig up some back issues of salt water sportsman, marlin or florida sportsman, you will come out of those articles with only one conclusion, swordfish must be saved at any cost. that sentiment has changed now.

so here is what we are looking for, ICATT to issue the US an adequate quota (the cake) and NMFS to keep the longliners out of south florida (eat the cake too).

chucker, the benefit of reporting your catches is to establish a historical catch rate so that when future quotas are handed out the US is not forgotten, that will not keep the LL out. my experience has been that you should report double what is being caught, because in the end you will only be issued half of what you want. i am sure that erroneous reporting now takes place for this purpose.

it is good that you did some research on ICATT. what you will find is that most countries do not catch their own quota, but sell it off in one way or another to the japanese, spanish, koreans and americans. the benefit of selling off that quota is enormous, not to mention historical catch data to guarentee future quotas. unused portions of quotas will be issued to other nations (our delema).

your analysis that rec. economic impact out weighs commercial only holds water between jacksonville to miami and that is only due to the current closure. don't you think that when blue water submits the potential economic impact for LL'ers in this area the numbers will be those of an adequate fleet both local and transient? off the top of my head i can calculate a min of $50 growth per pound of swordfish to the US economy with commercial sales, multiply that by tens of thousands of pounds per week. if you want to compete with that everyone needs to include the price of their vessels and you would still fall short.

[Rod Chucker]

im gonna do some research before i respond to that fully BP, cause i like to back up my analysis with facts, but for now, can you tell me what this means?

look at section 2 of this ICCAT reccomendation -

http://www.iccat.int/Documents/Recs/.../1995-11-e.pdf

if im reading it right, its says that since 1999 countries who do not reach thier quota can utilize the remainder the following year, 3 year periods at a time.

if thats true, how do other countries get our unused quota?

[Disco Lady]

Tagem, stickem, put him in the boat then CONO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HIM> :lol:

[Broadbill-Pro]

future quota allocation is the concern. if we do not use the quota then it can and should be distrubed to countries that will.

if the US cut of the pie is reduced and longline activity once again increases, the rec. fishery cut of that pie will be dismal.

at the end of the day, chasing the LL's out will hurt more than help the interest of most concerned here. it will help the local fish stock, but we have already established that few are really worried about that.

[quack quack]

Is there any one that could give us the true facts about the future of rec swording in this area?All there is are guesses as to what could happen.

1. All fish rec caught are reported. This shows large strong population of swords of all sizes.What does the nmfs do next?

2. LL boats come in to do experimental fishing.Why?To see if new hooks and methods reduce juvenile fish mortality and bycatch?

3.Strong population of fish new hooks cut bycatch and mortality of fish.Does this cause the area to be opened up to LL boats?

4. If not to show this area should be opened to LL boats why do they need to do exp fishing out here?

5.Could local[state] politicians keep the area closed?

6.Could there be a state law [re net ban]that could keep the straits closed our is it a Fed only issue?

7.Could a economic study showing the money spent rec swording really be greater than the commercial money spent?

8.Does any one else feel that the deck is stacked against us and it is only a matter of time till the LL are back?

9.Do you feel the rec swordfishing community is split in to at least 3 diff groups?

[PUMPKINEATER]

Originally Posted by RiskTaker

By the way, what if someone catches the fish with a PSAT tag? Is there any type of incentive to encourage the release of the fish? (ie. record a serial number and report that for a $100 reward, just a hypothetical example) I suspect most recreational guys would want to keep a good size fish and simply return the tag. But with only 3 tags being deployed from this endeavour, it seems like you would want to maximize the time on the same fish.Any comments on that?

Hopefully the fish that we tag and release will not be caught again until after the PSAT tag pops off (between 60-90 days) so that we can obtain the maximum information possible from that tag. The information from the tag is uploaded through the satellite once the tag reaches the surface. If you either find the PSAT tag floating or on a fish that you catch, there is a $500 reward to return it and that information will be on the tag.

As for the releasing of the fish if you happen to catch one that has a PSAT tag: wouldn't it be great to be able to say "we released it" when you return the tag for the $500 reward? I would and hopefully others would too. But there is no law or regulation that says you can't keep it and/or you have to release it.

At the end of the day the most important thing is that eveyone reports all catches and/or releases.

[Rod Chucker]

Originally Posted by quack quack

Is there any one that could give us the true facts about the future of rec swording in this area?All there is are guesses as to what could happen.

1. All fish rec caught are reported. This shows large strong population of swords of all sizes.What does the nmfs do next? THATS A NO BRAINER BUD.

2. LL boats come in to do experimental fishing.Why?To see if new hooks and methods reduce juvenile fish mortality and bycatch? WHY DONT THEY "EXPERIMENT" IN OPEN ZONES?

3.Strong population of fish new hooks cut bycatch and mortality of fish.Does this cause the area to be opened up to LL boats? HOPEFULLY, WHISHFULLY, NO - BUT I THINK IM WRONG

4. If not to show this area should be opened to LL boats why do they need to do exp fishing out here? SEE ANSWER TO QUESTION 2

5.Could local[state] politicians keep the area closed? HMMM.

6.Could there be a state law [re net ban]that could keep the straits closed our is it a Fed only issue? THEY CANT EVEN KEEP THE NET BAN INTACT, THERES COMM. BOATS USING 45 FT "CAST NETS" IN A STATE PARK DURING SPANISH MACK RUNS

7.Could a economic study showing the money spent rec swording really be greater than the commercial money spent? HOW AND WHERE THE MONEY IS SPENT IS OF CONCERN. COMM. MONEY GOES STRAIGHT OUT OF TOWN, REC. MONEY HELPS THE LOCAL ECONOMY MORE

8.Does any one else feel that the deck is stacked against us and it is only a matter of time till the LL are back? MAN I HOPE YOUR WRONG HERE Q, BUT SOMEHOW I THINK YOUR CORRECT

9.Do you feel the rec swordfishing community is split in to at least 3 diff groups?

AT LEAST