rec. vs commercial

[Rod Chucker]

to be honest, i must point out that recreational fishing does put stocks under a certain amount of pressure. i will never be convinced that rec. fishing does as much damage as comm., but obviously taking any amount of fish from the fishery makes some impact. considering the fact that the amount of rec. fishermen increases each year, and techniques and gear become more advance and efficient, rec. fishing is going to cause more pressure than in the past in many species, and it should be closely monitored for that reason.

reasonable bag limits and size restrictions for rec. fishing being honored and poaching aside, rec. fishing can be controlled to the point that no significant damage to the stocks will occur. more net bans, LL bans, more strict bag and size restrictions should also be applied to the comm. fleets.

yeah, yeah, i know alot of comm. operations are hangin by a thread already, and more strict rules would put alot of mom and pop operations out of business, but whats worse? letting the comm. interests kill off all the fish which would put them out of business anyway? or putting them out now and maybe saving enough stocks to rebuild on.

[Another Grand]

Recreational fisherman taking fish from a fishery does not necessarily put a dent in the fish stocks. There is a max population level of the number of swords that can sustain themselves in relation to food that is available for them to eat. This is why when you hear all the talk about the fishery being at 80% ect, that is what they are talking about.....of course every body rec/commercial diagrees what level the fishery is at and even then not everybody cathces fish.

In my opinion the rec fleet has a tiny almost immeasurable impact on the migration of swordfish that takes place every winter. There are sometimes weeks in a row where a rec boat cant get out to fish. We may have a greater impact on the fish that are native to our waters but even then this is no where near the impact that long liners have on the fishery.

Long Lining/Commercial Fishing, I will agree with you definitely has a negative effect on fish stocks throughout the world.....not just here. It is done all the way up the coast all around the world ...it is just so attractive to commercial interests in our area because the grounds are so close that the cost of gas, supplies, ect are greatly reduced. That and the fact that the stream channels between Florida and the Bahamas concentrating the migration of swords.

Considering all this, I think it is important to remember that Swordfish are a highly migratory species swimming thousands of miles over the course of their life. I have spoken with 1 former LL who now operates out of Venezuela who swears that the reason the swords dissapeared(or at least in regards to the rec guys ) in the past was not the population of swordfish declining but a complete dissearance of bait (squid/tinkers) from the sword grounds.......but who knows.

Anyways just want to point out that I dont think recreational fishing even has a measurable impact on the fishery even though I am sure many will diagree. I dont even think that commercial beeper bouy boats have that great of an impact on the fishery because they are subject to the drift just like us. As far as lonlining goes........I could care less about a certain
mom and pop business making money when its the future of a fishery that we are talking about. However, alot of people dont realize that the commercial long lining interests arent local, they arent even just in America, it is a global problem that takes place all day every day and we are constantly fighting to keep other countries out of our waters.

Just thought I would offer another viewpoint.....I would like to hear some others

Johnny

[RiskTaker]

I think that there are so many people on the planet these days that even if we had only recreational fishing we would still have an impact on some of the localized fish populations. We simply need to be vigilent on monitoring all popular food fish species, and food chain species, and adjust bag limits as needed to ensure that they remain in sustainable supply and are not over-fished. In a recreational sense, I do not believe one bit that we cannot have a significant impact. We must also be cognizant to include the destruction of habitat, period. That statement alone can be unfurled into pages of examples. We also have the ability to enhance habitat: mentioned just so we do not omit this too.

Obviously, many of the fisheries that are far offshore and away from significant people densities, would have a lesser impact. But we still cannot allow wide open exploitation far away either. I am still waiting for the day to catch a yellowfin, bluefin or a big eye tuna from the western side if the gulfstream in south Florida. If the global supply was not so depressed there would be more of them travelling our way .

That said, in a population dense world of fish eating people (directly or by consumerism), commercial interests need to be positioned away from places where recreational fishermen recreate. (This also includes the mainline arteries where these fish travel for the ones that have migratory patterns.)

Agreed, it does cost the commercial fisherman more to travel farther: chances are a commercial fisherman is one of our neighbors and lives among us. Some may be stationed where the fishing is at in places away from population densities.

Recreational fishing is certainly cost inefficient as it is: why exacerbate this given by allowing commercial interests to deplete a fishery where recreationals recreate. I have heard of so many old time swordfishing anglers that have nearly given up fishing for swordfish completely after a time that they view it as good. Then after just a few years, having to dodge long line sets off Florida coast and fish 10 to 20 times to even be able to catch a single fish. ( I hope this is a one time example, no encore performances please.)

Basically Commericial Longline fishing has the potential to wipe out a supply of fish in a given zone within a few years of active participation. Yes, longlines are that effective. There are lots of hooks in the water.

I do not despise commercial fishing. But it does directly impact my quality of life, as a costal resident and angler. And I want to protect that quality for myself and children. If we were robots and without personalities and without a desire for recreation and the persuit of happiness, commercial fishing is the most cost efficient and effective way to catch fish.

In the final analysis, the removal of fish from our waters whether it be by commercial, recreational or natural phenomenon does have an impact if the sustainable level, changes from historic levels when there was no pressure applied. With a world full of people we have to be extra careful not to over-feed the masses and continue to work with a diminished fish stock to achieve that effort. (It applies to everything we do actually.)

[Broadbill-Pro]

Risktaker said : That said, in a population dense world of fish eating people (directly or by consumerism), commercial interests need to be positioned away from places where recreational fishermen recreate. (This also includes the mainline arteries where these fish travel for the ones that have migratory patterns.)

this is the only excuse for an area closure in regard to a highly migratory species that makes sense.

it is nice to finally feel some fresh wind in this forum

[quack quack]

see my last post on nightlife thread.

[RiskTaker]

QQ:

Suggestion: When you refer to another location, place a link to go directly there in your post, to facilitate your referral comment/statement.

Example: http://www.swordfishingcentral.com/f...pic.php?t=4818

At least you do not have to go duck hunting to find the place. :lol:

P.S. - This is good subject matter. I hope that it does not deteriorate in a way like, the thread continuator CJWINDONLEADER had on a prior thread. BTW - I started to read the thread above: my respect grows for several of you guys big time. I have been busy lately: but the content from your posts is immensely important to all of us.

I respect opinions, but the B.S. (CJ, & self proclamed Master and 5 hours hookup)was running pretty thick, and I had to stay out, as much as I would like to chime in from time to time.

P.P.S. - We put one in the boat Thursday night, as quiet as it was. Reported yes, I believe so. But not big enough to challenge the SSC heavyweight of the week. But what a beautiful time to be out on the water.

[Randy]

Hmm.. Just thinkin out loud .Im not a marine biologist whos done an extensive long term study following the life of a swordfish to know exactly how he lives and To my knowledge I havent heard of any scientific community tagging and following these brutes with an extensive long term study. I seem to see people saying in each instance "the species is healthy at 80% etc. " and my question is compared to what ? Compared to 100 -200 years ago or compared to within their comparatively short lifetime memory or study from yrsago till now ? As an example i've heard fishermen exclaim the Kingfish fishery is healthy now that gill nets are gone but again im not the above scientist whos done the study but just within my short lifetime remember Kingfish THICK chasing mullet schools that would make the ocean BLACK TO THE HORIZON (1960s) Compared to that is the kingfish fishery healthy ? Personally I think it's not justcommercial/recreational fisherman depleting a species but a accumulation of factors includingbutnot limited to pollution sea , land and air. Personally I think The pollution were dumping in the sea , the thousands of years of poison weve put into the land is leeching into the sea and the damage wevedone to the ozone is now making the water hot . Now throw millions of fishhooks from an ever exploding human population into this "stewpot" and then wonder "why is there not as many of a species as 1-2-300 years ago ?" Agreed , any increase of any of the factors above will increase the "Speed" of the decline of ocean species and we should all do our best to try to "limit" our damage but in the long run unless we can clean up thousands of years of mankinds land pollution , get all these chemicals out of the sea and heal the ozone layer to get the sea back to the temperature before the first combustion engine puffed it's first puff it's not gonna get better. Asa matter of fact population continues to grow. Personally I think it's a losing game as EVERY DROP OF POISON weve put into our environment from the beginning is STILL HERE ! The earth is a sealed environment , theres no way for it to get out. Though it may disappear into the ground, sea or air it's still there getting thicker and thicker. The first puff of the first combustion engine is still here. And, The population GREW TODAY ! Ahh..............The lessons learned from Easter island, The world wont end with a loud bang but with the tiny whisper of the axe as the last tree is felled. As we get up , brush our teeth letting the chlorine treated water go down the drain , use the can adding effluentto the "outflows" and drive to work (puff, puff) do we really have the right to single out one group or reason for our depleting stock of fish ? We can do the best we can to try to help but before throwing the first stone perhaps we should all remember our current environment was a team effort. We used to think the world was so big we could never poison it just like we thought there was so much fish in the sea we couldnt deplete it. Does anyone still believe that ? I think it's all relative , not IF the world will change but when. Personally i think it's changing as we read this , not enough to notice but by just a "whisper" . Just thinkin out loud . Randy

[quack quack]

Randy: :salut: =D> well said.

[CaptKen]

Wow Randy that was great ! Now I think Im gonna start up My puff puff machine and head over to the vessel, jump in and puff puff my way out to the 50 and remove a swordfish from the polluted water, to take him out of his misery of course, not just to watch him die, or maybe I'll do a mako instead, Mon night.

[Randy]

I may do Monday night Ken , It was a little better last trip with 4 hits two in the boat one released . All small though . The keeper was legal but a "sandwich fish" .Called on 72 both last trips for you but no answer. Depends on weather though , Monday or Thursday a maybe . Work heavy rest of week. Water temp never got lower then 72 this winter. Hope this summer doesnt bleach out the coral reefs again. Randy

[RiskTaker]

Yeah:

It may be a little bit unrealistic to "get back to the garden". We must certainly try to conserve where we can though. I think our very nature is wasteful and our creativity will never allow us to be totally one with nature. But we must accept that it is not healthy for our eco-system for 5 Billion people to be running around with their "puff puff" land conveyances let alone a 1/2 billion that can ply the seas.

So keeping an eye on the "Maximum sustainable yield" figure in the present condition is about the best we can do under the circumstances.
And to be especially sensitive for the ones that are in an over-fished category.

It is nice to dream of the world how it was 200 years ago and be able to apply today's methods if you were able to beam back in time and fish those waters then. Today, it is simply nice have have a night out and land a swordfish big enough to weigh at least 100 lbs. dressed.

Another Grand - Once the numbers are tallied, I have to agree with you that the recreational numbers cannot put a significant dent into the overall allocation. But we are also trying to keep an eye on this localized hotspot.

Anyone else with some good comments.

[Broadbill]

I still tend to believe Rec. fisherman can put a signifigant dent in certain fish populations. I think some might feel too guilty to admit that they contribute to their demise. I started a thread about this a while back (comparing rec. and LL swordfishing). Regardless of what some think, on a nice night there could be a thousand boats swordfishing from Key West to the Cape. Thats not only a lot of hooks in the water, but most of us have a pretty good idea of what we are doing which makes us specialized. This means we are all fishing hot spots, structure, temp breaks, etc. with well rigged baits. We can also re-set quickly and easily on a honey hole. A long line boat can't do that. If they make a bad set that is pretty much it due to the time of re-loading. Total= Thousand boats on a nice night x 1-3 fish per boat, you figure it out. I'm not saying that is horrible, but we are taking a pretty good number of fish when you look at the big picture. Swordfishing is becoming extremely popular in our area which means more and more people fisging every night.
Another example would be kingfish. Kingfish numbers for now are high, but think of the number of large breeder fish killed in kingfish tournaments every year. Fifteen years ago it was nothing to fish the beach off of Ft. Pierce and catch 5-6 fish well over 35 pounds in a morning. Now with kingfish tournaments up and down both coasts of Florida these big fish are certainly not here like they were. One reason besides pollution and commercial fishing is rec. fishing. Rec. fisherman spend a lot of time and money honing their skills on a desired species. When you have hundreds of boats all dialed in and fishing a 3 day tournament in an area loaded with migrating fish (at the time) they get hammered. A fleet of boats fishing awesome baits in a perfect area with todays tackle and rigs= a pile of large fish being killed. Not to mention the 2-3 days of pre-fishing before each tournament. Oh and by the way if you release a 40# king and she swims off and you feel like you have done something good, think again. They have the worst release rate of any fish, especailly in our warm water.
These are just examples and just an opinion. I just think it's funny that we all blame someone else but can't admit that we do some damage ourselves. Even if you only kill 20 fish a year thats still 20 less because of you. Figure that into the millions of bone heads on the planet that fish. And pollution, I don't even want to get started on pollution. We have so much run-off out of Taylor Creek that our river has about 1/10 of the turtle grass it did when I was a kid. Our reefs on the beach and out to the third reef look like they got hit by a nuke. Which is proabaly the biggest reason for less showing of big kings on the beach. I don't blame them, I wouldn't want to swim around in that crappy water to chase half the amount of bait that should be there either. Once again just an opinion. I think we should all be responsible and do the right thing instead of blaming everyone else all the time.

-Scott

[CaptKen]

BroadBill
I would agree with most of what you say, Except 1000 boats on a good night between Key West and the Cape.

If I had to guess I would say maybe 250 on a flat calm Sat. night
and I bet there is less than 10 boats out of that that could put 3 in the boat on on a regular basis, And I dont mean 3 on that one red hot night, I mean pick 5 random nights throughout the month and take 3 fish each night

I think the way the sport is growing you will see 1000 boats on a flat calm Sat night, but it may take years before that happens.

And when it does you can eliminate Me from the pict after what happend to Me and Joe {ChumminwithChunk} a few Sats back, We had a JO MO in a large open fish running 40-50 mph WITH NO LIGHTS ON ! come within 150 feet of our bow while we were running and never even saw us or slowed down, The guy never had a CLUE, I just thank the lord that Joe happened to see him first.
Ken

[njoimia]

That is crazy! someone was on your side, for sure.

[CAPTINMITCH]

Even if you did have 1000 boats taking 3 fish EVERY night of the year, the math doesn't back up your position.

3000x365=1,0950,000. Scientific studies done by ICCAT and others say a large breeding female lays 30,000,000 eggs per year. If only 1 percent survive, it would only take four females to supply the stock for a greatly exxagerated take figure.

Think about it, four fish could provide more fish than 1,000 boats taking 3 fish every night of the year could harvest.

And I think Ken is right, from the Keys to the Cape there are probably less than a dozen rec guys that can consistently bag 3 fish in a night.

The term to research is fecundity.

[Rod Chucker]

Good points and lots of good info from y'all. Thanks. I havent been fishing the swords long enough to know this answer, maybe someone has that can tell me: Has the sword fishery in Broward been impacted by the pressure we're putting on it? It seems to me that there's as many fish out there this year as last, but that's a way small sample in time. Maybe someone out there's been doing it alot longer than me that has an opinion?

Someone said that it looked like I-95 out there the other night. We counted 30+ boats around the 50/26 before we gave up counting. One things for sure, if it keeps growing, someones gonna get sunk by some idiot plowing around out there without lights.

[CAPTINMITCH]

Originally Posted by Rod Chucker

Good points and lots of good info from y'all. Thanks. I havent been fishing the swords long enough to know this answer, maybe someone has that can tell me: Has the sword fishery in Broward been impacted by the pressure we're putting on it? It seems to me that there's as many fish out there this year as last, but that's a way small sample in time. Maybe someone out there's been doing it alot longer than me that has an opinion?

Someone said that it looked like I-95 out there the other night. We counted 30+ boats around the 50/26 before we gave up counting. One things for sure, if it keeps growing, someones gonna get sunk by some idiot plowing around out there without lights.

Again, no the rec fishermen have not impacted the stocks. And yes, I've said many times that I'm surprised we haven't had a fatality out there yet. Key word it yet.

[Broadbill]

It doesn't back up my point??? I don't want to get into a numbers debate. I guess the genius with ICCAT had a lot of time on his hands to count all 30,000,000 eggs in the study. If they had all their shit together we wouldn't even be talking about this right now. You might better do some math. If that many swordfish made it every year they would be washing up on the beach or trying to get in your swimming pool bacause they had no room left in the ocean. My point was there are more and more people boating and fishing every year and that can certainly have an impact.

Oh and fecundity? You mean the art of being creative? Take a flight off the coast from stuart to miami one night and then post on here how many boats you counted. I've fished out of Light House point and had over 100 boats on my radar within 36 miles. They were probably all water skiing out there though.

[CAPTINMITCH]

Originally Posted by Broadbill

It doesn't back up my point??? I don't want to get into a numbers debate. I guess the genius with ICCAT had a lot of time on his hands to count all 30,000,000 eggs in the study. If they had all their shit together we wouldn't even be talking about this right now. You might better do some math. If that many swordfish made it every year they would be washing up on the beach or trying to get in your swimming pool bacause they had no room left in the ocean. My point was there are more and more people boating and fishing every year and that can certainly have an impact.

Oh and fecundity? You mean the art of being creative? Take a flight off the coast from stuart to miami one night and then post on here how many boats you counted. I've fished out of Light House point and had over 100 boats on my radar within 36 miles. They were probably all water skiing out there though.

Easy hoss, wasn't flaming you. Just pointing out that while the area from Palm Beach to Miami has a heavier amount of rec guys fishing, once you get north of there it's a LONNNNNNNNNNNNG run out. It's one of the reasons I'm going to Sebastian at the end of the month. There is some fantastic structure at 65 miles out that is virtually untouched. It's inside the closure area but out past where most recreational fishermen venture.

And no, I was referring to the first definition. :lol: