Commercial Fisherman?? You tell me!

[Uncle Buck]

Which part?

[tunaman81]

Originally Posted by Another Grand

That Marlin in the picture above fetched $550,000 - thats almost $518 dollars per pound that fish received. The winning White Marlin was worth $1.3 million and I know Monday it was at 67 lbs (lets round it to 70) That fish is getting around $18,570 some odd dollars per pound.

That is the value of the fish to the crew that caught it. I don't think it necessarily represents the direct value to the community.

Originally Posted by Another Grand

How much more money do you think these fish raise for that community indirectly?

Vinnie was absolutely correct in his earlier statement. Ocean City is a bustling vacation area during the summer and does not depend on tournaments to sustain the community. The large number of hotels, resorts, bars, clubs, restaurants, a boardwalk ect all take care of that.

[Another Grand]

It is the price the fish recieved per pound either way you want to look at it.

I dont think it brought that value to the community nor did I say that. Nor did I say Ocean City depends on tournaments or that it does not have a thriving economy. The people that attended the tournament most likley rented hotels and I am sure that the people that participated went to the bars and restaurants.

When I look at that picture of the Marlin, I see 300 million Americans perhaps Vinnie only sees the crew

[Another Grand]

Originally Posted by Uncle Buck

Which part?

We can start with Yellowtail snapper and how you think they are caught commercially and what the market price is?

[Tunacious92]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

The fact that Bob sells fish and was at one time against it, is no different than Ron once selling fish and now opposes it. It only indicates to me who is better at it.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. This is so very true and also very funny.

[Uncle Buck]

Johnny... Just throwing that ridiculous price out there with the rest of 'em. If all yeller snaps are taken hook & line, one at a time, via rod & reel... then go ahead and dismiss that one from my example. But with the ease of availability in the markets, I doubt there's a fleet of fishermen out there catching 'em one by one. If you wanna argue this further... meet me at the Rock...

[Another Grand]

All good Bill - we will take up the conversation at the Rock sometime.

[Harry Klauber]

Originally Posted by Another Grand

We can start with Yellowtail snapper and how you think they are caught commercially and what the market price is?

Johnny,
I think Yellowtail are a bad choice as they are really a local commodity and not common to markets where they are not locally hook and lined. I think the controversy is more about fish that migrate and/or can be caught commercially in numbers either by netting or long lining. It's true the guys in the Keys dumping 100 pounds of chum in the same spot everyday and selling their fish ARE commercial fishermen but should not in all fairness be compared to a PLL dumping miles of baited hooks in the water. I know you weren't making that direct comparison just challenging Bill who was making the point that even if recs could sell every single fish of every kind they caught that they would never fill the demand. I believe that to be true thus always the need for some commercial way to catch fish in quantity to fulfill demand. Pick another species for you and Bill to duel it out about - I just think Yellowtail are a bad example. Harry

[Uncle Buck]

Bullshit Harry! Me and Johnny Law are gonna duel this out with unfiltered saké!!!!!!

hahahaha... but yeah... it was just to make a point.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Johnny,

I didn't bring up the value issue in this thread and it was not the point I was trying to make. If a team can win a million bucks from a dink marlin my hat is off to them, but when one particular event produces nearly 400 interactions not counting missed fish with a species that is not only off limits to another fishing sector but has been considered for the endangered species list, something is wrong with the picture.

Ocean City (one of my favorite towns) has a commercial clam industry, commercial lobster, crab, tilefish, swordfish, scallop, flounder, bluefish and a dozen more species that are harvest all year. The summers are filled with tourists on the boardwalk and the pubs are jammed everynight. If they lost that tournament or made it a release only, the bottles of booze from June til September would not stop flowing.

I have my issues with release tournaments, as I personally feel that release mortality is greater than 50%, but to display dead fish in 2009 while the finger is pointed at others is just wrong.

Where is the CCA, TBF, IGFA and RFA on this issue? Do they really feel that it is OK to intentionally harrass and kill a billfish under the umbrella of sport, while condeming the incidental interaction of another user group? Who made this about money anyway? Is it OK to kill billfish that are worth a million bucks any more than a billfish that's worth 50 cents? Anyone who says yes is not speaking for the fish.

[Disco Lady]

Originally Posted by Uncle Buck

Bullshit Harry! Me and Johnny Law are gonna duel this out with unfiltered saké!!!!!!

hahahaha... but yeah... it was just to make a point.

Ñoooooooooooo!!!!

[Harry Klauber]

Originally Posted by Uncle Buck

Bullshit Harry! Me and Johnny Law are gonna duel this out with unfiltered saké!!!!!!

hahahaha... but yeah... it was just to make a point.

Bill,
A duel to submission with chopsticks. Please video same for you tube. Have fun! Harry

[Harry Klauber]

Vinnie,
You wrote: "I have my issues with release tournaments, as I personally feel that release mortality is greater than 50%, but to display dead fish in 2009 while the finger is pointed at others is just wrong".

I agree with the ethics of your argument - you could not be more right BUT if you couldn't kill a big marlin and win those huge bucks what would all the super wealthy guys need their 30+ knot mega sport fishermen for? The fleets that assemble from all over to fish these high dollar tournaments represent a huge amount of money spent on boat purchases. Some consideration needs to be given to that aspect of what tournaments do for the economy of not just the town they are held in.

In any form of fishing there is always going to be interaction with fish that are not the target species. At least with a rod and reel it can be minimized and the release mortality rate lowered. I'm not certain that your 50+% release mortality is correct and would like to know if that is your number or is it from any scientific data? Fish caught on rod and reel that are properly released stand an excellent cahnce of surviving unless they become shark food because they are too tired to escape being chased down. I believe most of the tournament crews are good at doing their very best to release a fish in the best condition possible. Of course there are going to be exceptions but in comparison to a marlin hanging on a long line half the night I'd say the one released from a sport boat is about 99% more likely to survive. I doubt you could argue that point and by the way the 99% is my number created in my head.

By-catch is a fact in fishing that there is no way to stop it. It can be controlled to some extent but the only way to stop it is to not allow any fishing in the areas that the fish you want to avoid live. While targeting Mahi we have all hooked both blue and white marlin. They live in the same areas and although we are fishing smaller mahi baits on lighter tackle marlin still become a by-catch. How can it be stopped - by prohibiting trolling in over 300 feet of water? There will still be some mahi caught but it's doubtful in shallow water you are going to find many marlin.

When science, opinion, and passion all come together there are bound to be differences of opinion and I hope all of this doesn't result in any permanent damage in the way of hurt feelings. Respecting your right to disagree with me, without my being upset, is the one of the reasons I will engage in these debates.

As were you once a "commercial only" guy so was I although not to the extent in time and effort. In different ways we were both forced out of the business but my opinion about how fish stocks are over fished has never changed. I understand that over fishing might not have meant wasteful fishing as all that was being done was the filling of demand but the harvesting that caused any stock depletions were never at the hands of recreational fishermen. That doesn't make commercial fishermen the "bad guys" as they definitely have their place in our food chain, and economic system, but agreement that they do "wholesale damage" in a short amount of time would not be the greatest sin in the world. We agree and we disagree. It's how certain things are. Harry

[Uncle Buck]

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

... How can it be stopped - by prohibiting trolling in over 300 feet of water? ...

SHHHHH!!!! Don't give the enviros any crazy ideas!!! Deep-dropping past 240ft is already at risk!

[Ron.38 Special]

Vinnie,


I'm not going to argue with you on the internet. Call me if you really have something to say.

Ron

[WhItEoUt 23]

Im glad you edited that low blow.......

[tunaman81]

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

Vinnie,
Of course there are going to be exceptions but in comparison to a marlin hanging on a long line half the night I'd say the one released from a sport boat is about 99% more likely to survive. I doubt you could argue that point and by the way the 99% is my number created in my head.

Actually, survival studies on marlin caught on the current longline gear (Circle Hooks) have indicated a relatively low mortality rate (rec caught billfish also have very low mortality rates when using Circle Hooks). Survival rates have a lot to do with hook type.

However, sport fishermen that continue to use J-hooks may have fairly high mortality rates on billfish (up to 35%). This is especially true in the rec sailfish fishery off south Florida and the rec white marlin fishery due to the fact that rec anglers continue to use irresponsible release techniques and drag sailfish and white marlin out of the water and into the boat for a pic (even though this is illegal).

[Harry Klauber]

The assumption at this point is hook choice, circle or J, is your preference if you are targeting fish to kill for the table. If the choice is J hook, and a gut hooked sailfish is by-catch, then the mortality rates for release sky rockets. If you are kite fishing for sails, which is 100% release, I don't know of anyone still fishing with anything but Circle Hooks hoping for the best possible releases and believe mortality rates are relatively low.

Using Circle Hooks only any fish caught on rod and reel "should" have a much better chance for survival upon release than one caught on a long line just from the exhaustion factor suffered by the fish on the long line. That was the point I was trying to make. Harry

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by tunaman81

..... drag sailfish and white marlin out of the water and into the boat for a pic (even though this is illegal).

Tunaman81,

I have heard over and over again about this "supposed" LAW for handling Billfish. Please inform me of this statute or direct me to a link of this supposed illegality. I have searched relentlessly and can't find any friggin' LAW stating such.

If an angler can legally bag 1 billfish per day that meets the specified length limits, how in the hell can it be illegal to temporarily possess said fish to take a photo of it.

The only restrictions I can find remotely concerning the handling of a fish for photos is with protected species, as in Tarpon and Goliaths, where there is a 0 bag or possession limit.

Enlighten me... curious minds want to know!

[Broadbill-Pro]

Jim,

50 CFR § 635.21 Gear operation and deployment restrictions.

(a) All Atlantic HMS fishing gears.

(1) An Atlantic HMS harvested from its management unit that is not
retained must be released in a manner that will ensure maximum
probability of survival, but without removing the fish from the water.

(2) If a billfish is caught by a hook and not retained, the fish must be
released by cutting the line near the hook or by using a dehooking
device, in either case without removing the fish from the water.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Harry,

I think you have summed it up well, if one fishes with J hooks the intention is to kill your prey.

[Harry Klauber]

We agree!! Harry

[The BEAST]

Vinnie,

Thanks! It appears that I stand informed and corrected.

OK... let me get this straight... If my customers want a picture of their first Sailfish, or whatever, we're going to have to kill them and take them home for the smoker? BUT... Couldn't we take the picture and consider it our 1 p/person bag limit and toss it back in the water instead of the smoker or worse, the dumpster? I truly wonder how that rule is intended to be enforced considering the above questions, let alone, make a damn bit of sense! Conservation at it's finest... fish stocks governed by a bunch of beaurocrats who never held a fishing rod, or worked a deck, and "most definitely" lacking in common sense.

I guess the TBF tagging research will have to suffer. The beaurocrats only use scientific data if it fits their agenda. According you you, most all of those Sailfish die anyway from mishandling and prolonged stress on sport gear. It couldn't possibly be that normal mortality could be the major factor, considering the life expectancy of a Sailfish is only 5 years to begin with. I guess all of my returned tags are/were just a fluke!

ALL of this sounds pretty damn stupid to me... BUT, once again, I expect nothing less than that from NMFS and SAFMC!

The "kill more fish to save the fish" quota is mind boggling to me. Some would rather open up the majority of the FEC, leaving only the the short spanse of the Fl. Straits to the rec angler, while setting up shop on both ends. How many fish will get through the fences? That works for you, huh? The big push is to have our PLL catch the entire quota. Once the quota is at or near potential... Do you honestly think that there won't be closed seasons anyway? It's NOT about another country getting some of that quota and possibly catching some, but NOT necessarily all, of those fish, OUTSIDE of the 200 mile EEZ... It's NOT about conservation... It's ALL about money! Period!!! Once again, common sense is out the window and greed rules!

The different scenarios I've seen portrayed on this forum are the same old tired arguments, presented day after day, month after month, by the same few, for over 2 years now. Do they honestly have any benefit to you, the rec angler? Our only salvation as recreational anglers is to keep the US quota at status quo and convince ICCAT of the actual conservation value of it!

Our history is about to come bite us in the ass again, friends... the only thing missing are the bell bottom pants and paisley shirts.

All this thinking made me want to go kill one for the quota... The BEAST on Ch 78 tonight!

[Uncle Buck]

C'mon Beast... you're smarter than that. You can see the "rule" for what it is... to encourage folks to take better care of a released fish. It's more of an addition to the regulations... a guideline. If your client really wants that 1st-time photo, go ahead and do it quickly. Just don't post it online.

[The BEAST]

You are correct! I am smarter than that. That is why I said I would take the pic and rather than keeping it as his legal limit, return the fish to the water. Why should I not post it online... not politically correct or is it because it IS a regulation not just a guideline?

The problem is that FWC "DOES" list this as a handling recommendation or guide... that is why I asked to see THE LAW! Well it appears the idiots at SAFMC made a regulation of it, not a guideline. As Forrest Gump said..."Stupid is as stupid does!"

Gotta go kill another Swordfish.... The BEAST out....

[mrl38]

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[Uncle Buck]

[PURPLE FEVER]

Originally Posted by Uncle Buck

C'mon Beast... you're smarter than that. You can see the "rule" for what it is... to encourage folks to take better care of a released fish. It's more of an addition to the regulations... a guideline. If your client really wants that 1st-time photo, go ahead and do it quickly. Just don't post it online.

Have your client jump overboard for an underwater shot

[Another Grand]

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

Johnny,
I think Yellowtail are a bad choice as they are really a local commodity and not common to markets where they are not locally hook and lined. I think the controversy is more about fish that migrate and/or can be caught commercially in numbers either by netting or long lining. It's true the guys in the Keys dumping 100 pounds of chum in the same spot everyday and selling their fish ARE commercial fishermen but should not in all fairness be compared to a PLL dumping miles of baited hooks in the water. I know you weren't making that direct comparison just challenging Bill who was making the point that even if recs could sell every single fish of every kind they caught that they would never fill the demand. I believe that to be true thus always the need for some commercial way to catch fish in quantity to fulfill demand. Pick another species for you and Bill to duel it out about - I just think Yellowtail are a bad example. Harry

I wasnt challenging anybody...just correcting misunderstanding and misinformation. Bill's entire post was factually incorrect. I will talk about it with him sometime over a drink or two

Vinnie provided a great example of the value a single recreationally caught fish can bring to the economy. Even if 400 fish were killed during the tournament, the aggregate weight divided by just the winnings alone would fetch a much higher price per pound than the commercial product is getting. If you take into account and apportion the indirect economic benefits that resulted from this tournament...no need to discuss how far you could stretch that out.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by Another Grand

Vinnie provided a great example of the value a single recreationally caught fish can bring to the economy. Even if 400 fish were killed during the tournament, the aggregate weight divided by just the winnings alone would fetch a much higher price per pound than the commercial product is getting. If you take into account and apportion the indirect economic benefits that resulted from this tournament...no need to discuss how far you could stretch that out.

what part of that statement deals with the conservation of a species? i thought that was what recreationals where fighting for???


if you are telling us that all the participants in that tournament are commercial fisherman (which could be true as they are fishing for monetary gain), then I may agree with you.