Sport Fishing Magazine March 2008 issue

[ameristrat]

So are we under the impression that the daytime fish on the bottom and the night time fish are (generally) seperate populations due to their location in the water column? That's a pretty interesting point... does anyone have info (apart from the squid example) to back that up or shut it down? As far as the electric reel debate, here is my opinion. Straight electric reels for deep dropping for swordfish is NOT sportfishing. It is meat fishing with electricity. I like the diawa reel that allows you to push a button with no fish but fight it if it is a fish as long as it is used as described. I am, if you could not tell, not a fan of electric reels and swordfishing. This is not necessarily because I am really worried about it decimating swordfish populations (recreational fishing is unlikely to do that regardless of how effective it is), but because I truly believe that if you do not personally slug it out against a fish, it isn't truly sporting. That isn't to say that daytiming is easy. I've been a few times... without a hit. I just believe that unless you are using a rod and reel (conventional - electricity), the captain deserves 99 percent of the credit for fighting the fish.... the angler gets 1% for pushing a button.... Just my personal apinion... I still prefer night time swordfishing... it's got the whole special feeling to it. Daylight usually = sailfish for me.
Ameristrat

[ProfessorO]

Originally Posted by PURPLE FEVER

Can we please put the bouy debate in the conservation section! My post was about electric reel bashers who use electric reels and conservation minded Islamorada captains who dont like it that others have figured out a way to catch fish that they thought were theirs.

Who here remembers the boasting about all the daytime catches they were making and how secret their tactics were? Hell they would'nt even charter a trip for a S. Fla. guy if they remotely thought their rig/methods might get known.Now they are preaching conservation and "say no to push-button fish."

Most of my last few posts have used the word hyprocrit or one of its variants
in them; these are just more examples. There are very few people that can
really throw the first stone with a clear conscience. cheers, arthur

[ProfessorO]

Originally Posted by The BEAST

I hardly know you, but a Professor O or any semblance thereof, you are not.

Jim, remarks like this are not needed here. Justin knows more about
this stuff than I do and I will safely bet that one day we will all be reading the results of his studies.

How can you make such an assumption about the general Swordfish population both large and small when when there has been what... half a dozen PSAT tagged fish (largest @150#)? Data? what data? Only about 3 with translated information, so far to date? Because 1 tagged small fish goes to the bottom, means all pups go to the bottom. If I remember the charts correctly most stayed in 200m (600') or deeper even at night. Of those 3 reports I saw from Professor O all of them stayed roughly within a 25 sq mile area.

Does that now mean that the "data" exhibits that they are NOT HMS? That's your data, right? Or do you pick and choose the data you want to use to formulate your hypothesis?

Please go back and reread my posts; there are a number of times that
I stated that two of the swords went out least 50 miles to the east during
the same general time period. Conventional tagged data summarized in
a post by Justin a few weeks strongly suggests that these fish are HMS
and the PSAT data will also show this result (my best guess).


Most learned marine science/biologists will tell you that what FACTS they definitively know about HMS Pelagic behavior is like a drop in a 5 gallon bucket.

Most members on here are speaking from experience. Just because it is not YOUR experience does not mean it is incorrect. When you say that big fish get caught on the surface at night are you referring to "surface" as being a 400' tip rod. Have you done any research on catches, posts, etc. to actually try and back your statement with percentage of fish caught at night being >150 pounds or better to percentage of fish caught during the daytime of >150# or better?

I won't continue on about your posts because I think you understand my apprehension. Portray your opinions as such, opinions. There is nowhere near enough data to make an educated opinion based on such. I believe Vinnie's experience in regards to Swordfish behavior faster than your hypothesis based on 3 PSAT tags.

Justin has looked at a lot more data than just 3 PSAT tags.

BTW... did you ever concede that commercials can use electrics, bandit gear, etc.?

I actually think you mean well!

cheers, arthur

[ProfessorO]

Originally Posted by ameristrat

So are we under the impression that the daytime fish on the bottom and the night time fish are (generally) seperate populations due to their location in the water column? .....
Ameristrat

NO,NO, NO, these fish are the same. Here are my thoughts and best guess
about a few issues raised here and in other posts in this thread.

(1)
Swordfish energetics dictate that the fish eat a lot and that they conserve
energy when not eating; these two facts and environmental constraints
control their behavior. They go where the bait is and that is why their
numbers vary so much offshore of here. I also believe that when they
find an optimal foraging location and they are getting enough food they
will stay around and eat with minimum energy expenditure. These optimal
locations include spots behind sea mounts, for example. 5 yrs ago when the
fishing pressure was an order of magnitude less local fisherman can go
out there and pick up these "temporary/transient" residents most of the
times; but once they are gone we have to wait for the next round of migrating fish to come around and that a few fish will stick around. Now
with a lot more fishing pressure we are cleaning out the "quasi-resident"
fish faster and the pickings are much slimmer.

(2) My preliminary analysis shows that swords really do not care about
temperature per say. This was a global analysis using PLL data.
However, the fish do care about O2 and the amount of O2 in the water
in frontal zones is highly temperature dependent. Vinnie, did you find
bigger fish in cold water which is richer in O2?? So correlation between
fish catch and temperature is actually more a function of O2 that is highly
correlated with temperature.

(3) Why does it seem that more big fish are caught on the bottom?? The
fish are more concentrated, both in the vertical and in the horizontal,
as our very little data show near the bottom. As mentioned above,
swords need to conserve energy when they are not in active feeding
mode and this means staying out of the fast surface waters. The best
spots are right on the bottom and the bigger swords get the best spots.
We are fishing right on the bottom and there is a higher probability
of getting bigger fish because of this and as Justin says, a little pup
is not going to mess around with a 400 lbr over a free meal.

(4) Why not more big swords at night?? Like many other fish, my guess
is that, on the average, the big swords are feeding below the little swords and that we are not fishing deep enough. If we fished around 600' we would be getting bigger swords. I also think the size difference between night and
day has been amplified by selective reporting of fish caught.

back to work. cheers, arthur

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by ProfessorO

(2) My preliminary analysis shows that swords really do not care about
temperature per say. This was a global analysis using PLL data.
However, the fish do care about O2 and the amount of O2 in the water
in frontal zones is highly temperature dependent. Vinnie, did you find
bigger fish in cold water which is richer in O2?? So correlation between
fish catch and temperature is actually more a function of O2 that is highly
correlated with temperature.

Arthur,

You asking a guy who spent 25 years with his face in a SST gauge if he had it all wrong. Swordfish are abundant in a wide range of temperatures, I personally have caught them in areas of SST from 54f to near 90f. My personal opinion is that temp is related to activity. We know that during the spawn they look for the warmest, slowest water available, that generally is away from the Stream or temperate climates. Post spawn they are in a feeding frenzy to regain weight and energy after a long trip and are prone to areas where bait is abundant and fatty. This may be where your O2 comes into play, bait we know is reliant on O2 rich water for survival. There is no question that larger fish prefer colder water, this has been evident fishing the Grand Banks where 60f and 72f SST push together. The warmer side always holds more fish, but in general a smaller run. The other issue is predators, in the cold water we are much less likely of encounter mako sharks, a known swordfish enemy. The choice to stay in the colder water may come with experience.

(3) Why does it seem that more big fish are caught on the bottom?? The
fish are more concentrated, both in the vertical and in the horizontal,
as our very little data show near the bottom. As mentioned above,
swords need to conserve energy when they are not in active feeding
mode and this means staying out of the fast surface waters. The best
spots are right on the bottom and the bigger swords get the best spots.
We are fishing right on the bottom and there is a higher probability
of getting bigger fish because of this and as Justin says, a little pup
is not going to mess around with a 400 lbr over a free meal.

I know better to question your knowledge of currents. I submit to you that very few bottom fisherman are able to keep the bait close to the bottom due to the current. I fished with 2 very knowledgable and successful bottom fisherman on seperate occasions, both of these guys hit the bottom, tighten up and let the bait pull away from the seabed immediatly. Their strike range is from zero to 100' off the bottom, I mention this because neither catches small fish. If there is a sweet spot that larger fish protect, why are we not catching smaller fish 100', 200' or 300' off the bottom when drifting tight?


(4) Why not more big swords at night?? Like many other fish, my guess
is that, on the average, the big swords are feeding below the little swords and that we are not fishing deep enough. If we fished around 600' we would be getting bigger swords. I also think the size difference between night and
day has been amplified by selective reporting of fish caught.

back to work. cheers, arthur

Large swords are moon driven, it is no secret that larger fish travel closer to the surface between the first quarter and the last quarter. 600' would not get us to the larger fish during the dark of the moon, been there done that. Before the new year all of the fish I caught were slam full of bait, 2 of those fish were caught on the bottom just before dark. Do I think they were on their way up with a full belly at 7pm to look for more food? Doubtful, that was the case. Since the new year most stomachs have been mostly empty and now the fish are scarce, go figure.

BTW, contributions to the BBP sword school can be mailed directly. Peter Wright gets paid for much less information.

[Ron.38 Special]

Having read this thread, the most amazing part of it is the fact that one poster has questioned two of the most important facts facing us in this swordfishery.
1. He questions the fact that PLL's overfished the FEC and completedly closed the recreational fishery.
That is fact, not a presumption that is open for argument!

2. Now he questions the economic impact of recreational swordfishing.

My highly experienced friend has no limits to how he will use his experience. No matter that his experience has nothing to do with the receational fishery in the 70's and 80's, now he is an economist???????

What did you do , take online college economics during your drift every night???

The high economic impact of recreational fishing is well documented. The fact that recreational fishermen spend more than the fish is worth to catch it, is testament to the fact that the economic engine driven by recreational fishing eclipses the economic impact of commercial fishing for nearly every species that is targeted by both groups.

There are experts on the PLL industry in the high seas and global market on this forum, but their position and comments are selective and done solely to promote the PLL industry. PLL's and recreational fisherman will always be at odds if they fish the same waters.

I suggest that expertise does no make you an expert on the economics of sportfishing or fishery managment along our coast.

[Ron.38 Special]

BTW, one of the most interesting things about the Sport Fishing Mag article is the letter to the editor by Rich Ruiz of Bluewater Fishermens Association.

[ProfessorO]

Let me clear up one of my statements. Swords do not care about a
particular temperature like sailfish do, to name one example. As
Vinnie mentions he has caught them over a large range of temperatures
and data supports that fact and that is all I meant. The reason Vinnie spent so much time looking at SST charts, I presume, is that he was looking for fronts, locations where temperature changes a lot and bait tends to be
concentrated along.

One of the reasons that the pelagic fishing is hot along the west coast of central america is that in that area of the E. Pacific, there is little O2 at depth
("old water") and the fish are concentrated in the O2 richer surface waters.
The buzz word for this is habitat compression and Eric Prince and colleagues
have published papers on it. The big fish need to be in O2 rich water to
be able to go into a feeding frenzy; don't underestimate its importance in
determining fish distributions.

Maybe the little ones have full bellies and are resting comfortably during
the day?? The big ones need to eat more so they will not pass on an easy meal?

I would bet a dinner that the PSAT tags, after we get a few samples for
each, will show that the big fish and small fish have the same general
up and down behavior and that the bigger fish may be slightly deeper,
on the average, with differences between moon phases as suggested
by BP above. Vinnie, What do you know about differences in migration
between the males and females?? Males and females grow at different
rates (if I remember correctly, if not, one of the experts will let us know)
and differences we see in size may be more related to differences in
sex.

So getting back to the original thread, all those guys with blood on
their hands need to shut-up about who is doing what do "their" fishery;
PF you are so right that you should write a letter to the mag pointing this out!! cheers, arthur

[PURPLE FEVER]

Originally Posted by Ron.38 Special

BTW, one of the most interesting things about the Sport Fishing Mag article is the letter to the editor by Rich Ruiz of Bluewater Fishermens Association.

Ron I purposely did not comment on the Ruis letter because there was nothing hypocritical about it. While you and I may disagree with him he is at least consistent!

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by Ron.38 Special

1. He questions the fact that PLL's overfished the FEC and completedly closed the recreational fishery.
That is fact, not a presumption that is open for argument!

You are right, it closed the recreational fishery due to gear conflict, not the lack of production. Because you suck at fishing does not indicate that the fish were gone. PLL were catching very well in the years you state right here in on the FEC.


2. Now he questions the economic impact of recreational swordfishing.

My highly experienced friend has no limits to how he will use his experience. No matter that his experience has nothing to do with the receational fishery in the 70's and 80's, now he is an economist???????

What did you do , take online college economics during your drift every night???

Ron,

It has been proven over and over again that you have fck all knowledge of fisheries if it has not been previously published.

You would like us all to believe that the entire recreational marine industry is driven by rod and reel swordfish production. It does not take an Economic Major to see that direct related commerce produced by recreational swordfishing is not the BILLIONS that you would like us to believe.

I stated $10m before, now let's be realistic. 200 boats at $20K each the start up year and probably half of that following years.

Burt,

Ron interprets what Rich says in comparison to Hillary commented on Bush. In his mind Rich beats the dog and smacks the wife everynight when he returns home.

[swordstalker]

A real question from the latest version of the swordfishing S.A.T exam:

Ron .38 Special vs. Broadbill Pro is most akin to;

a) Tom vs. Jerry
b) Sylvester vs. Tweety
c) Wylie Coyote vs. Roadrunner
d) all of the above

C'mon guys, healthy debate is good, but alot of threads seem to digress to you guys trading insults with each other like a cartoon.

[CaptKen]

Originally Posted by ProfessorO

for example. 5 yrs ago when the
fishing pressure was an order of magnitude less local fisherman can go
out there and pick up these "temporary/transient" residents most of the
times; but once they are gone we have to wait for the next round of migrating fish to come around and that a few fish will stick around. Now
with a lot more fishing pressure we are cleaning out the "quasi-resident"
fish faster and the pickings are much slimmer.

EXACTLY O ! DING DIND DING We have a Winner !!!! with 20-30 miles of gear in the water every clam night in the tri county area it dosen't take long.

[bajakian]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Large swords are moon driven, it is no secret that larger fish travel closer to the surface between the first quarter and the last quarter. 600' would not get us to the larger fish during the dark of the moon, been there done that. Before the new year all of the fish I caught were slam full of bait, 2 of those fish were caught on the bottom just before dark. Do I think they were on their way up with a full belly at 7pm to look for more food? Doubtful, that was the case. Since the new year most stomachs have been mostly empty and now the fish are scarce, go figure.

BTW, contributions to the BBP sword school can be mailed directly. Peter Wright gets paid for much less information.

This series of posts are awesome and I want to thank both Vinnie and Arthur for taking the time to educate all of us and share their knowledge and experience. It is just this kind of communication that makes this site so incredible. You guys rock! The beers are on me when I see you guys again.

[quack quack]

D for sure.

[snooknreds2]

Originally Posted by bajakian

This series of posts are awesome and I want to thank both Vinnie and Arthur for taking the time to educate all of us and share their knowledge and experience. It is just this kind of communication that makes this site so incredible. You guys rock! The beers are on me when I see you guys again.

[PURPLE FEVER]

Originally Posted by swordstalker

A real question from the latest version of the swordfishing S.A.T exam:

Ron .38 Special vs. Broadbill Pro is most akin to;

a) Tom vs. Jerry
b) Sylvester vs. Tweety
c) Wylie Coyote vs. Roadrunner
d) all of the above

C'mon guys, healthy debate is good, but alot of threads seem to digress to you guys trading insults with each other like a cartoon.

What happens when you add Beast to the mix?

[quack quack]

You call that a Texas cage match.