Sport Fishing Magazine March 2008 issue

[Harry Klauber]

To Uncle Buck
Thanks for another honest report about what it is really like. I find hooking them to be the most difficult part and don't pull that many hooks. I do get slashed and smashed baits and never had a clue that I had a bite. I'm "old school" in the way I fight a fish even though I know swords have a soft mouth. I still fight them with much more drag than most as I'd rather make the fight short, one way or another, than lose a fish after a long fight. The 423 we got a few weeks ago inhaled the bait and was gut hooked but by the time we boated the fish the hooks had torn through the stomach and all the way up the throat until one finally lodged in the base of the bill. From hook-up to harpoon wasn't more than 20 minutes so I guess we were lucky as had a hook not caught the base of the bill on the way up we would have never seen the fish.

[PURPLE FEVER]

Originally Posted by CaptKen

If you go back and read through the link I provided, throw out the 1 line heros and peaunut gallery replys and read through, there was some good info by some real fisherman, I believe for Dec one of the best months out front, 30 boats, 30K+ of fish. But I believe it was more like 20 boats or less catching the brunt of the fish, but I could be wrong.
Also an interesting thing that was admitted, there is such a thing as 10-12 fish nights, admitted it only happens 2x a year, after doing some interviews on my own, I was told it happens 10x a year.

What blows my mind is if they admit that the average core size out front for the year is less than 50 lbs, What is NMFS thinking letting the commericals kill inside the closed zone? Im sure they have to know by now, Is the all mighty quota worth killing these pups in the closed zone ? What is going to happen to the cycle 5 years ahead ? and this is a rebuilt fishery now ?

Ken this was predicted a few years ago!Unfortunately, if the closed zone were closed to all commercial fishing it would probably be closed to ALL fishing including recreational!

The fishing lately has certainly changed! Maybe its seasonal, maybe its the pressure this fish are under. I'm amased at what I see leaving Hillsboro Inlet in the afternoons. Even female tournament kingfishermen are now commercial bouy fishermen!

But my thread about the hypocracy in the latest Sport Fishing Magazine has been derailed by the bouy debate and that was certainly not my intention!

Harry I doubt that the daytime/nighttime fish are different groups. The daytime fish that I have caught have been loaded with squid.

Also I think the majority of the deep bites have been on squid as well!

Kevin Mahfood put a sat tag in a nice daytime fish recently and I think there may have been a few others. That data will tell us something and will confirm or dispute your theory!

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

The point is that in the 70's after the longliners wiped them out you couldn't even get a bite and we all just quit fishing at night. I hope the Feds will "follow the dollars" and realize that, as always, the revenue generated from any rod and reel caught fish far exceeds that generated from a commercially caught fish.

Harry,

Just when I thought I could read without replying, you go ahead and strike a nerve.

I have asked this question many times, if it was impossible to catch a fish here during the PLL days, why did they (PLL) continue to fish here in light of the fact it costs $2000 to $4000 per night to LL?

You have the decade mislabeled as well, I think the 80's would be refered to as the PLL era of supposed destruction.

The revenue from directed recreational swordfishing in no way compares to that of the commerce developed by the commercial swordfish industry. Let's just assume that Ken is correct with that #30,000 trip of #200 plus plugs. That trip alone is worth $150,000 on an ex-vessl level, add another $150,000 to get it to a wholesale level and another $300,000 to get it to a retail/restuarant level. That's $600,000 generated by 1 vessel on a 2 week trip. Another way to look at it is 200 fancy electric reels or all the electric reels sold in South Florida in more than a year. Let's not even get into how many jobs rely on the 600k, from the crew to the bus boy. Remember 1 vessel 1 trip.


sorry Burt

[CaptKen]

Sorry Bert for the derail

One thing is for sure, We all have a love for these great fish or we wouldn't be wasting our time here in the first place. We may have a differnce of opinion at times, but we all share the love.

Harry
The ones I have been involved in have had squids in thier stomachs
and not all have been breeders, and a good friend has caught 1 less than 25 lbs.

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

. Another way to look at it is 200 fancy electric reels or all the electric reels sold in South Florida in more than a year. Let's not even get into how many jobs rely on the 600k, from the crew to the bus boy. Remember 1 vessel 1 trip.

OMG! Here we go again! Using the example of a PLL trip off North Carolina generating income has no bearing on the State of Florida especially if you are only going to cite 200 fancy electric reels in S. Florida as rec revenue generated from fishing.

I wonder how many bus boys and restaurants went out of business due to the Swordfish boycott years ago? None! Is the only dish sold at restaurants, Swordfish???? How many, wholesalers, truckers, restauranteurs, busboys, etc, in your theoretical Swordfish circle went belly up due to the lack of catching Swordfish off the Florida coast? The only ones who felt the direct impact from the error of their ways was the PLL's and crew who couldn't relocate to fish out of the FEC after the closure.

WE all know that the only revenue generated by rec fishing is in electric reel sales, right? No yearly boat sales generating the state 6% on every dollar. Over $6 million in state saltwater licenses of which almost $2 million were out of state licenses (tourism), $95+ million (conservative) in boat registration fees, 6% state sales tax and .5-1.5% in local sales tax also on every dollar spent related to recreational fishing and the boat used to fish with. Gas tax (state and local) on every gallon sold at 1-2 mpg, bed tax (state and local), ramp/marina fees, boat sales, salesman, mechanics, and on and on and on!

Here's an excerpt I googled which reflected numbers in the early 90's when the PLL were in there hay day off our coasts and nets were legal in state waters... well before the state started generating more revenue by licensing recs, etc.:

Recreational fisheries are a big business in Florida, generating $115 million in state sales taxes in 1991. During that same year, more than 2.5 million people spent almost $2 billion fishing in Florida's waters. Florida's sport fishing industry supported 58,000 jobs which resulted in more than $1 billion in earnings in 1991. Commercial fishing is also an important industry in Florida. The dockside value of commercial fish and shellfish landed in ports such as Key West, Tampa Bay, and Fort Meyers, totaled almost $200 million in 1995.

The rec fishing industry in the State of Florida alone is a MULTI BILLION dollar a year industry and you equate it to 200 fancy electric reel sales in S. Florida. Typical Vinnie!

[tunaman81]

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

To Tunaman - You have it backwards my friend! Everyone understands the feeding patterns of swordfish in colder northern waters..

With satellite tagging in recent years we are getting an idea of how swordfish behave in this area as well. Swordfish in the Florida Straits tend to go deep during the day and return to shallower, surface waters at night. This is supported by data.

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

You say these fish return to the surface at night to feed. The fish caught at night are almost always gorged on squid so the night feeders are just in the water column where the squid happen to be. Every fish I have caught on the bottom during the day has not had one single squid in it - not one that I have ever seen. Others might say differently but that's been my experience. All they ever have in them are the remnants of finfish and other unidentifiable "junk" ..

Thats funny, because I have seen many night caught fish with finfish in their stomachs. I have also heard of plenty of squid being found in the guts of daytime swordfish as well. Which makes sense, because squid follow the same pattern as swordfish in the area: go deep during the day and return to surface waters at night. Everything is just following the deep scattering layer.

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

I'm not a scientist, nor a marine biologist, but I pose this question to you - How come the daytime fish are so disproportionately large in size and numbers to the nightime fish.

Some of them are, however, I have heard and seen pics of many fish in the 50 to 70 inch range, and even some sublegal pups. There is a video floating around of a very small daytime fish. I would hypothesize that during the day the fish are compressed in a much smaller volume of water. When they are concentrated like this, I would guess no 50lb fish is going to attempt to steal a bait from a 400lb fish, or it might become a meal itself. When night falls, the fish move about in a much larger volume of water while hunting for food.

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

Has anyone considered the fact that these bigger fish rarely come up high enough in the water column to be caught by the night fishermen? Of course a few do, and are caught, but the majority stay deep all the time and just don't mix with the smaller night fish. Don't you think if it was as simple as up and down, in and out, that a few "pups" would get hung on our daytime lines. Ask around - I've never seen an undersized fish from the bottom. Has anyone else? If they have they are few and far between. If you give ALL of it some thought you have to reach the conclusion that the smaller fish do not like the cold temperatures on the bottom and the big fish like it .

We know for a fact that big fish do rise to the surface at night. There have been many, many large fish caught at night. In two night trips last fall, I saw 3 fish over 400 (largest being just shy of 500), and several in the 200-300+lb class. There are several people on the forum who have been doing very well catching larger fish at night. Also, a daytime fish tagged from the Keys did indeed return to the surface at night to feed.

Originally Posted by Harry Klauber

If you give ALL of it some thought you have to reach the conclusion that the smaller fish do not like the cold temperatures on the bottom and the big fish like it .

We know that this is not true. Small swordfish (mid 40") previously satellite tagged at night off Ft. Lauderdale showed that the fish went to the bottom in 1800 plus feet of water during the day, and returned to the surface at night. You can access this data on a website provided by Professor O.

[tunaman81]

Originally Posted by CaptKen

Harry I feel your pain.
we had a buoy fisherman admit that the overall core size of a buoy fish out front throughout the year is less than 50 lbs, .

That would be about a 70-80lb fish, which seems to be an average sized fish for the area. This comes as no surprise.

Originally Posted by CaptKen

This tells me that when a pack of fish move through say during the winter months and some hang out that we call locals or residents, the local buoy fleet of 30 whipes them out and the fishing sucks as it does now according to one of local expert helpers.

This is a ridiculously unsubstantiated attack on buoy fishing with absolutely nothing to back it up. Buoy fishing is a very good option for commercial fishing, as there is almost zero bycatch and undersized fish are released in better shape than they are from rod and reel. Its funny, because on any given night there are many more rec boats out fishing than buoy boats. Plus you have people fishing during the day.

Originally Posted by CaptKen

If you remember back just 5 years ago before the buoys, you could go out on any given night, moon phase or whatever and at least have 5 shots or maybe 10.

Thats funny, because this past fall and the fall of 2006 there was excellent fishing, and there were buoy boats around. People are also still doing very well now, when weather permits.

Also, I'm willing to bet that your numbers are exaggerated. I find it funny Ken that you complain about misinformation, and then you go and make a post like that.

[PURPLE FEVER]

Can we please put the bouy debate in the conservation section! My post was about electric reel bashers who use electric reels and conservation minded Islamorada captains who dont like it that others have figured out a way to catch fish that they thought were theirs.

Who here remembers the boasting about all the daytime catches they were making and how secret their tactics were? Hell they would'nt even charter a trip for a S. Fla. guy if they remotely thought their rig/methods might get known.Now they are preaching conservation and "say no to push-button fish."

[quack quack]

It is a crazy world we live in.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Jim,

Typical Beast to put a spin on everything. The comparison Harry made was not related to the FEC, neither was my reply.

If we use the same analogy as you then all boat sales and tackle sales rely on recreational swordfish production. Name one boat that was bought to recreationally swordfish only. Recreational swordfish contributes to the sale of large conventional reels and rods, bait, fuel and a few other misc. items, that hardly equals BILLIONS of dollars.

Commercial swordfish sales and consumption of related products far exceeds the sale of any and all recreational products sold specific to catching swordfish. That's what we are talking about, not the resin sold to build the next Hatteras yacht.

To listen to you speak, if commercial fishing persists every tackle shop and boat builder in Florida will go belly up.

You would have a hard time convincing me that $10m is spent annually on directed recreational swordfishing in the Florida Straits.

$10m would equal 200 vessels spending $50,000 each per year on swordfishing, we should probably cut that number by 80%.

BILLIONS , must be rum:30 already

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by PURPLE FEVER

Who here remembers the boasting about all the daytime catches they were making and how secret their tactics were? Hell they would'nt even charter a trip for a S. Fla. guy if they remotely thought their rig/methods might get known.Now they are preaching conservation and "say no to push-button fish."

Burt,

Your correct, after several hundred fish now they want everyone else to do as the say, but not as they do.

Their 15 minutes is over.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by tunaman81

We know that this is not true. Small swordfish (mid 40") previously satellite tagged at night off Ft. Lauderdale showed that the fish went to the bottom in 1800 plus feet of water during the day, and returned to the surface at night. You can access this data on a website provided by Professor O.

Justin,

You should spend some time fishing in an area that allows you to work in cold water and the stream on the same day. You will then learn what temps large fish and small fish prefer.

You offer a lot of good information, but the swordfish globe does not turn in the tri-county area and you can not determine the species from less than 1%of the world they travel in.

The few dozen you have tagged hardly makes you an authority. Close the books for a while and put on some boots and gloves. If you would like I may be able to arrange a month long trip on a PLL. I am not speaking about a cake walk on the Carol Ann, that's Dave style. I'm talking 20 hours days and feet that seldom are dry.

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by tunaman81

With satellite tagging in recent years we are getting an idea of how swordfish behave in this area as well. Swordfish in the Florida Straits tend to go deep during the day and return to shallower, surface waters at night. This is supported by data.

I hardly know you, but a Professor O or any semblance thereof, you are not.


How can you make such an assumption about the general Swordfish population both large and small when when there has been what... half a dozen PSAT tagged fish (largest @150#)? Data? what data? Only about 3 with translated information, so far to date? Because 1 tagged small fish goes to the bottom, means all pups go to the bottom. If I remember the charts correctly most stayed in 200m (600') or deeper even at night. Of those 3 reports I saw from Professor O all of them stayed roughly within a 25 sq mile area. Does that now mean that the "data" exhibits that they are NOT HMS? That's your data, right? Or do you pick and choose the data you want to use to formulate your hypothesis?

Most learned marine science/biologists will tell you that what FACTS they definitively know about HMS Pelagic behavior is like a drop in a 5 gallon bucket.

Most members on here are speaking from experience. Just because it is not YOUR experience does not mean it is incorrect. When you say that big fish get caught on the surface at night are you referring to "surface" as being a 400' tip rod. Have you done any research on catches, posts, etc. to actually try and back your statement with percentage of fish caught at night being >150 pounds or better to percentage of fish caught during the daytime of >150# or better?

I won't continue on about your posts because I think you understand my apprehension. Portray your opinions as such, opinions. There is nowhere near enough data to make an educated opinion based on such. I believe Vinnie's experience in regards to Swordfish behavior faster than your hypothesis based on 3 PSAT tags.

BTW... did you ever concede that commercials can use electrics, bandit gear, etc.?

I actually think you mean well!

[Broadbill-Pro]

Justin,

We are not down on your contribution to this subject, but you come off as the final word on swordfish behavior. I have tagged well over a xx,a lot, xx of them mostly with harpoons and gaffs. In order to tag that many you have to stay one step ahead of them, know when their eating and where they are moving to next. I'm talking about living with them day in and day out and when your unloading in port, networking with other vessels who are staying with them. You don't get that type of information from a few PSAT tags.

We appriciate you relaying what the data reveals, but the only true indicator is the accumulation of vessel data. It is fact that bottom dwellers are larger, I have caught a few fish barely under #100 on the bottom so far, but that only reflects a small percentage of fish landed. There certainly seems to be enough bottom out there for small fish to find their place without

QUOTE:I would guess no 50lb fish is going to attempt to steal a bait from a 400lb fish, or it might become a meal itself.

I would be more inclined to believe that Harry has something there with the temp. theory. Whatever it is, one thing for sure is that there is not much size mixing down there.

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Jim,

Typical Beast to put a spin on everything. The comparison Harry made was not related to the FEC, neither was my reply.

Vinnie,

You're the Mr Twister!!!

I'll post your quote again! I highlighted the discrepancy in your comparison. Electric reel sales in Florida vs 30k# commercial sword trip in N. Carolina

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Another way to look at it is 200 fancy electric reels or all the electric reels sold in South Florida in more than a year. Let's not even get into how many jobs rely on the 600k, from the crew to the bus boy. Remember 1 vessel 1 trip.

.

I never said if commercial fishing persisted everything would go belly up. You are the one who tries to put the slant on it... if the PLL can't catch Swordfish the economy will go to chit!

Who am I to argue with a self appointed expert!

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

I am as close to an "expert" that this forum has

OK... I'm done. I won't continue participating in the derailment of this thread.

Sea ya, Curly!

[Broadbill-Pro]

OK MO,

We really need to take this to sea one day. I would love to have your undivided attention for 8 or 10 hours.

I did mention PLL in that expert quote, don't know much bout anything else.

[The BEAST]

Why did you take the number 150,000 out of your post? You were a PLL and a damn good one right? I would expect no less of a number!

We might never survive 8-10 hours within 30' of each other... ya think?

I'm not MO... that is TD. QQ is Larry. I'm not in your hunt club...