Conservation Conversation

[Jesslyn]

The "overall impact" of fishing pressure has to be the the biggest concern for both rec and commerical swordfishermen. I think in reality that has to be the sum of all fears for all of us on this forum. I do fear the overall impact of the pressure we are putting on the fish here in the straights. I personally do not believe the math that says we are recovered. We may have numbers but we do not have the size. I have been swordfishing since 2000 (new at this I know) but even if you compare what is going on now compared to 2000 we are putting a lot of pressure on these fish. Since 2000 we have created 24 hour pressure recreational and commercial. I think one of the biggest eye openers to us has to be removing large breeding females. It seams in theory at least that killing fish under 60 inches would be better than killing fish over 80". I know this is not realistic for swords but having a slot might be the way to go. I have never heard this suggested but we do this with other species to protect the breeders. Why not swords?

And if not a slot then what other ideas are out there to limit or control the overall pressure on swordfish or are we just saying they are recovered and trying to catch the quota?

Do you really think they are recovered? Compared to what? The way it was in the 70's? I have never heard anyone suggest that. And if its not like it was back then, why do we say recovered?

[quack quack]

Good post Matt I understand here you are coming from.But I really do not think we are putting as much pressure on these fish as you think.Today is Oct 1st and it is blowing 20 to 30mph.While the day time mystery has been solved I do not think it will add much more pressure on the fish.Not many guy will do a day trip then a night trip if they get a fish in the day.So 50 boats that would fish at night now 10 may day fish and 40 at night=same pressure.I am sure some new guys might try day fishing that would not go at night but not a lot more.No rec day or night boat or buoy boats will be fishing for a few days.I think we will be having a windy winter.I know a few big fish have been caught in the day but if this was at night it would be celebrated not debated.But they would have been the same dead fish.

[Jesslyn]

I wanted to remove the day from night thing and just wanted to converse over the issue of removing the breeders from the population.

[quack quack]

That has been a tough call in the past.While we all know the 2 sides of this debate.1. remove fish before they breed2.Remove fish after they have breed a few times.I really have no idea about this.Maybe Tunaman or Prof O could shed some light on this.Sorry I forgot to call you on Fri Matt.

[kyle]

I don't know if the slot would work?

1. If the maximum for slot is say 80" how much harm is done to a fish while you try and get an accurate measurement on it.

2. Is it feasable to realease a 300lb fish that has potentially fought for a couple hrs.

3. (opinion) Slot limits pressure a certain size fish way to much. I know its different but think of snook fishing the first 2 weeks of season its easy to catch slot fish, after that it can get tough.

Example: we know these fish spend most of their juvenile lives in and around the straits, after 5 yrs of deing pressured don't you think slot fish will start to decline in numbers. If only slot fish get kept the only thing we'll have left to breed is leftovers that have made it through.

I don't know though just my thoughts.

Kyle

[Relentless33]

Originally Posted by kyle

2. Is it feasable to realease a 300lb fish that has potentially fought for a couple hrs.

I was curious about this as well. If a big fish was brought to the surface from the 1500 foot bottom after fighting for an hour or more would it survive a release? I'm not so sure that a big fish is as easy to hold on to and revive as a pup is.

[Captain Ollie]

I think that if we had a clue about the true total tonnage of swords removed from the worlds oceans on a daily basis.....we would.

#1 Faint
#2 Faint again after making sure we saw that # right the first time.
#3 Be uttrerly and completely amazed and maybe even slightly confused that given that amount of harvest that there could even be any left.

[RiskTaker]

I am moving out on a limb to a slight degree here, at least until some more actual data figures are again released by N.M.F.S.

But for now, I truly believe that the recreational harvest of swordfish is comparable to Commercial Buoy swordfishing reported data, which is factually accurate. The actual number of recreational reports would indicate that the recreational harvest is less. (Let's see what the data shows when N.M.F.S. does release their recreational summary report: I think that this would be the summation of call-in reports plus all tournament reports, total fish mass and not core mass as is standard measure reported by commercial venues.)

Even if the recreational call-in reporting was significantly off, which would be the portion that is called in/not called in, by HMS permit holders, and not the tournament data, I find it very hard to believe that it would be more than 2x, the reported Commercial buoy catch data. (If you don't have an HMS permit while swordfishing, you should be penalized with a ticket, just like not having a fishing license, as needed; ie. we need some visible level of enforcement to encourage more reporting vigilant recreational reporting, plus any other voluntary techniques that may encourage compliance. For example, post your report numbers with any photos of fish you post on the internet.)

I believe that the commercial Buoy fishing data reports should be very precise due to the regulations in place. If you look at the actual data that is released on a timely basis (See Ron's post, where I actually linked in the actual report spreadsheet - OK, So how many fish do the Buoys really catch? ) Do that math and Algebra yourself. You will discover that Commercial buoy fishing accounts for less than 10% of the "North Atlantic" national harvest. I look forward to crunch the numbers again, on a yeat to date basis, and hopefully with the addition of N.M.F.S. officially reported recreational data inclusive. A nice pie chart will result: indicating the overall size of the pie, plus a graphic of the size of slice the various fishing disciplines are taking from the pie.

We can also do some nice comparisons to the International Pie chart that ICCAT administers and see how we are doing overall with how much the United States of America is allowed to take from the Northern Hemisphere Atlantic Ocean. I suspect we will have an underage here also.

My prediction is the recreational portion of harvest on a year to date basis and/or annual summary with still be less than 5% of the pie of fish that was removed from the ocean, as far as USA is concerned, and that may still not be fulfilling the overall quota that we currently have at this time. (Note: we need to be careful to back out the year over year rollover of quota under utilization to arrive at an accurate yearly number crunch.)

Note: if I have made any material mistatements errors/omissions, please comment where you believe I am incorrect. Provide supporting backup to your correction if you can. I will gladly amend any material mistatements.

[Jesslyn]

Dont rip my head off on this one guys, I am just trying to learn.

Rick you raise some interesting points and I can only hope that holds true. I know you were speaking about the buoy fisheries compared to everything else but lets put these 4 things on the table for discussion.

#1 In comparison to what Ollie posted right before you, does any of this conversation really matter at all. And if Ollie is right are we dealing with a species that will die off soon no matter what the quotas are? Or a fish that is so plentiful that they will always be?

#2 I think what concerns me most is not how much we are catching, just where we are catching it. If this indeed is a nursery and the survival of the species depends on the fish succeeding here, then what in the world are we doing by letting all the fish from a nursery area to be harvested. Perhaps it would serve all fishermen everywhere best if the amount of fish allowed to be harvested from our nursery be limited?

#3 concerning this ruling

SUMMARY: This final rule amends regulations governing the North
Atlantic swordfish fishery to provide additional opportunities for U.S.
vessels to more fully utilize the U.S. North Atlantic swordfish quota,
in recognition of the improved stock status of the species. The U.S.
North Atlantic swordfish quota is derived from the recommendations of
the International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas
(ICCAT), and is implemented under the authority of the Magnuson-Stevens
Fishery Conservation and Management Act (Magnuson-Stevens Act) and the
Atlantic Tunas Convention Act (ATCA). For the past several years, the
United States has not fully harvested its available North Atlantic
swordfish quota. This final rule will increase swordfish retention
limits for Incidental swordfish permit holders, and modify recreational
swordfish retention limits for HMS Charter/Headboat (CHB) and Angling
category permit holders. It will also modify HMS limited access vessel
upgrading restrictions for vessels concurrently issued certain HMS
permits. These actions are necessary to address persistent
underharvests of the domestic North Atlantic swordfish quota, while
continuing to minimize bycatch to the extent practicable, so that
swordfish are harvested in a sustainable, yet economically viable manner.

DATES: This final rule is effective July 9, 2007.

Is it possible we are not catching our quota because the fish are not here? Or are there just not enough PLL vessels fishing for swords? Which again leads me to believe that perhaps its not profitable do to low numbers? Ok don't get aggravated at my questions I am just trying to learn more here so be gentile. Maybe Eric can chime in here or BBP.

#4 Lastly can we all comely discuss this point,

It is my understanding that we started to buoy fish here under "equal access" (please correct me if I am wrong). How is it equal access when a buoy boat can fish 35 buoys with 70 baits and a rec boat fishes 5 or 6 baits at a time? Plus it is common knowledge that a buoy will out fish a rod and reel do to wind drift and bait presentation. I do realize there are only a few who fish this way. And most boats fish less so for arguemnet sake how is 10 buoys and 20 baits equal to 6?

[quack quack]

As with most things Matt it all comes down to money.
1.A PLL can make a lot more money tuna fishing.
2.Imported swordfish is what drives the price down.
3.If PLL got $6 and up for swordfish we WOULD!!! be catching our quota.
4.Blame NAFTA,CAFTA and all the other AFTA'S because if we had proper surcharges and tariffs on imported fish we would be catching our quota.Now they want to take our quota away and give it to countries that will catch it and then sell it to us at a very low price.Talk about taking American jobs.But this is happening all over this once great country.Bigger,better,faster,CHEAPER!

We import fish and price goes down.We catch less because price is to low.We loose more quota to countries we import fish from.Now all swordfish is imported and it sells for $5lb so everyone can buy it like Talapia.Every one has seen all the toy recalls from China.what about the pet food stuff as well.What do you think will happen if all our fish is imported!!!!!!!!

This my friends is the truest thing you will ever read on this forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jesslyn]

Eric, WOW thats an eyeopener!

[quack quack]

That last post of mine should be made a sticky.I think even Ron and BBP would be in 100% agreement.

[Jesslyn]

Originally Posted by quack quack

That last post of mine should be made a sticky.I think even Ron and BBP would be in 100% agreement.

Well, we will certainly find out now, wont we?

[Captain Ollie]

Believe me the fish are here, but who the F*** wants to fish for something that is such a price rollercoaster. Tuna is a steady price, higher than swords, and not prone to these ridiculous fluctuations The rollercoaster pricing is because its a very lunar fishery. Right now the price on swords is approx. as follows. 33-49 $3/ 50-99$3.25/ 100+ $4.
Thats the price I was quoted yesterday and if a seagull has farted in the right place at the right time that price may be different right now.
I'm currently getting $7 a pound (thats whole heads on) for lobster, and I've been gettin them REAL good with a 2#+ average size, what the hell do you think I'm more inclined to fish for!? Same thing applies to PLL'ers and why they may be more inlined to fish for the tuna. It's a really crappy feeling to leave the dock when the price is $5 and come back loaded to the gills, thinking you've made some real good coin, only to find out that the bottom fell out and now it's $3. Hell, I know one guy who sat at the dock for 2 + weeks last year, after a phenomenal trip, hoping that the price for 100#+ fish would get better. It had plummetted to $2.90. Well the price never showed any signs of life and he just ended up unloading it in the end.

[Jesslyn]

Ollie, thats tragic

[Captain Ollie]

Keep in mind I'm just making some points as to what its like to make a living fishing. I'm not bitching or whining about it, just telling it like it is. I'm just trying to give some real world perspectives on what goes on. The thing that really sucks is that no matter how low the fisherman's prices get, the price in the stores remain relatively unchanged. Its all a numbers game, and the dealers and distributers hold all the cards. Since the actual fisherman is the low man on the totem pole we most often just have to take what we can get. Its a rock and a hard place situation when you come in from a good fishing trip with a nice load of fish and find the price is not what it was or what you expected it to be. What are you gonna do? Its not like a fisherman can store his catch for any length of time. Your dealing with such a highly perishable product that you really have no choice but to take what you can get. So in the end, what I think happens is that the fisherman get paid to little, the consumers pay too much, and the middle men make the greatest profits of all.

[kyle]

You couldn't have said it any better

[Tal-Jen]

Ollie, I know for a fact that the people that YOU sell to, do the very best they can on the prices that they give you. I do not think that the MIDDLE MAN makes all the money in this example. Just my opinion.

[LIGHTINING STRYKER]

humm. this is interesting. I think i am going fishing for awhile.

[Captain Ollie]

Tal-Jen I know you know who I sell to and they are some of the most down to earth guys I have ever met or done business with. Why do you think I won't go elsewhere? If I recall correctly, I was the one who showed one of the main guys there how to bouy fish. The price thing is just a generaliation. Since I know you know the seafood industry inside and out, you must know where I'm coming from. Regardless of the prices in the local markets, when I walk into any one of the large grocery chains I see swordfish selling for $15 to $18 a pound on a daily basis. This price never seems to change regardless of how low the fishermans price gets. From that perspective it seems to me that the fisherman works the hardest and seems to make the least for the amount of effort it takes to harvest enough product to make the effort worthwhile.