Conservation Conversation

[CaptKen]

Thats it Stryker stir it baby !

[ballyhu]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but here goes....If the buoy caught fish are worth under $5 a pound and a rec caught fish is worth $1000's per pound ( remember about what it costs per trip for a rec when you think about all the people he is supporting...fuel, tackle, bait, crew, boat company, boat yard, marina, etc, etc) Why do we care about a quota, or about ANY commercial activity in this area. It only profits the few buoy guys and it seems that it doesn't profit them all that much. IMHO the livelihood of a handful of buoy guys doesn't have precedence over the hundreds of rec guys who spend thousands of dollars. Using the threat of quota loss to justify an expanded commercial swordfishery in south Florida is pure b%^&#$@t. We need less commercial pressure, not more.

[RiskTaker]

Originally Posted by ballyhu

This may be an unpopular opinion, but here goes....If the buoy caught fish are worth under $5 a pound and a rec caught fish is worth $1000's per pound ( remember about what it costs per trip for a rec when you think about all the people he is supporting...fuel, tackle, bait, crew, boat company, boat yard, marina, etc, etc) Why do we care about a quota, or about ANY commercial activity in this area. It only profits the few buoy guys and it seems that it doesn't profit them all that much. IMHO the livelihood of a handful of buoy guys doesn't have precedence over the hundreds of rec guys who spend thousands of dollars. Using the threat of quota loss to justify an expanded commercial swordfishery in south Florida is pure b%^&#$@t. We need less commercial pressure, not more.

Ballyhu:

One thing is for sure, I am confused by your opinion. For starters why don't you just say that a rec. caught fish may cost $10s of dollars to fish for and obtain. (It is still only WORTH, what the market will bear: but in reality it is not sold at market, with the few illegal exceptions.)

I think we have gone over this drill quite a few times in the past. But here goes one more time.

Why care about our quota? If we don't capitalize upon it, eventually ICCAT will redistribute the under utilized tonnage to other countries that are petitioning for more. The U.S. is presently a large stakeholder in this consortium and we could get relegated into just a quiet voice in the crowd. Strategically, it is important to be a dominate voice, especially since we (U.S.) is an exemplary model of how fisheries should be managed, as compared to other fishing nations.

Why care about any commercial presence in this area. Totally excluding commercial fishing is a very BOLD move, that can have adverse ramifications to our fundamental freedoms. We live pretty much as a free society, although rubust with technical restrictions etc. Impinge upon those liberties too much, and the Cradle with Rock; ie. civil insurrection is rife due to an out of balance situation. If this country were a dictatorship, there may likely not be so much commercial fishing. But what there would be would likely have revenues funnelling into the Treasurer's office.

Commercial catches in the FEC profits the entire supply chain and not just the buoy fishermen. If you read Capt. Ollie's perspective, the Net Profit margin of the buoy fishermen may actually be the slimmest along the supply chain. Who is actually reaping the greatest percentage of net profit/mark up, before it reaches the consumers plate remains a slight mystery, unless we choose to dig a little farther into this question. I can see some nice Pareto charts coming from this information. If somebody will provide the price steps to me, I would be more than happy to provide some very pretty and very informative graphs. Several examples would provide some sample variation.

The recreational fisherman are likely the greatest wasters of natural resources to get x amount of pounds of swordfish to the plate. But this economic/touristic machine is a vast revenue generator for a more diversified supply chain. This is what makes our economic engine chug. This is a hobby for many, so it is dismissed as hobby expense; however, the dollars expended to do this form of fishing, is great indeed. That is probably one of the reasons why it is deemed so important to perform a structured economic study, to actually see how beneficial this form of fishing is to the Florida economy. Without a good supply of fish in the water, this economic engine will get governed down to some uncertain but reduced level. But this form of fishing (recreational) is certainly environmentally friendly w.r.t the fishery stock, based upon historic figures and very likely with some forthcoming data figures.

Apparently, our appointed fisheries managers are abreast of the local and the International needs to fulfill quota allocations. It is becoming plainly obvious that they see our portion of the International quota as being the most stategic element of the Management game. Of course, their appointed charter remains: to manage the fishery such that it is sustainable with as close as a whole number (1) MSY as possible, for generations to come. Certainly if their vision or strategy falls short of that objective, then I would find that justifiable grounds for Office dismissal (a/k/a bodies get fired from their jobs.)

My hope, should the restrictions become further lifted is that it will be a short term measure to get us over the immediate hump of a quota satisfaction. Perhaps that will buy some time with a non-diminishing quota in our court, to assess the impact, and then hopefully tune it down a bit before a relapse of the early 80s is upon us again. Maybe we need Alan Greenspan, as Fisheries manager: he can adjust the Fed. fisheries rate, in quarter point adjustments to make periodic adjustments to the fishery to keep it humming at a stable pace without the highs and lows of inflation and recession, or feast and famine if you will.

IMO - We are at a local peak right now with a down turn inevitable. If you recall a few of the predictions of a few years ago, that the fish would be getting bigger on us. It seems like about a 2-3 years further delayed than what we were optimistally expecting (Or perhaps it is just a multi-anum seasonal rally as some have suggested too). But based upon some recent samples we are starting to reap the rewards of what was initiated nearly 8 years back, (the rebuilding initiative). But with lots of fishing pressure returning, we could skim the cream of the crop in a short amount of time. Has any body been keeping track of some of the large fish being caught in recent weeks?

So again, rec. guys, report your fish, if you are not doing so religiously already !! If you do your part to fulfill the quota, then it only seems reasonable that some measures may again be implemented to tone it down a bit. But it seems plain that it must be from the perspective of quota fulfilment and not from an under-utilized quota.

Then the next step, is to be sure that ICCAT does not exaggerate the "Pie size" numbers for a sustainable fishery. If their management of Bluefin Tunas is any guide, I give them a vote of NO CONFIDENCE at this moment, where some good housekeeping is in order. And this is what should be done with high priority for the benefit of our future generations. Certainly, we are having our frustrations on the home front with our micromanagement opinions and such, but at least we can be proud that the United States of America manages its fisheries a whole lot better that our international peers.

Again, I support commercial Buoy fishing as a modern day American use model, that appears to be low in by-catch; hence, it is probably considered a green form of commercial fishing.

I wish to continue to petition that the Commercial buoy fishermen do not get all stacked up in the metropolitan areas of Florida. Something creative must be done to ensure that they are disbursed over larger expanses of the FEC and not all crowding in where the recreational fleet is known to fish. Is that too much to ask, with a statement of support for its continued application?

[Another Grand]

Originally Posted by ballyhu

This may be an unpopular opinion, but here goes....If the buoy caught fish are worth under $5 a pound and a rec caught fish is worth $1000's per pound ( remember about what it costs per trip for a rec when you think about all the people he is supporting...fuel, tackle, bait, crew, boat company, boat yard, marina, etc, etc) Why do we care about a quota, or about ANY commercial activity in this area. It only profits the few buoy guys and it seems that it doesn't profit them all that much. IMHO the livelihood of a handful of buoy guys doesn't have precedence over the hundreds of rec guys who spend thousands of dollars. Using the threat of quota loss to justify an expanded commercial swordfishery in south Florida is pure b%^&#$@t. We need less commercial pressure, not more.

As I understand it.....

Because the situation is on a much larger scale than that. Our fishery is healthy, it can support both recreational and bouy fishing, it is honestly, virtually untapped. We are not removing too many fish, and even if more bouys are the result of what goes on in Washington in the upcoming months......we are not going to wipe out the fish and the amount of fish is not what the "problem" is.

The only bouy "problem" is the congestion of so many bouy fisherman in such a small geographic area. The amount of guys presently fishing bouys out front could not and will not wipe out the fishery......however, it does interfere with the recreational community in this very small geographic area of about 50 miles from South Palm Beach County to Dade. This is just as much the fault of stubborn rec fisherman, as it is bouy fisherman.....but in the end, it boils down to the fact that so many of both are coming out to fish the same area.

We NEED to be harvesting as many fish as possible to prepare for the next ICCAT assessment so that we can protect from reallocation of the resource to other countries. We as a country cannot afford to pull out of ICCAT because we do have such a say and influence.......most of the conservation and preservation is coming from us, thus if we are to leave it is left unchecked as to what is in store for the future of our fisheries on a global scale. This is not an option.....Vinnie or Ron could explain better than I could.

While the recreational anglers may contribute a great deal of money to the economy, it will make little difference if other countries gain access to our fishery, at least as to the maintenance of a healthy fishery.

There are two methods to harvest swordfish as itended catch:
1) Longlining
2) Bouy fishing

Technically, while our domestic longline vessels are constantly lobbying to get back in here, it really just boils down to the location. With the price of swordfish pushed so far down due to foriegn imports, these vessels are not targeting swordfish right now, so in a sense, they are just as much to blame for the quota problem, but as mentioned its not really there fault either......why fish for swords when you could make more fishing Tuna.....they have to put food on their children's plates as well.

We could allow longliners in here and gain in the number toward the quota, but it would destroy our fishery. The problem simply boiling down to the fact that type of commercial fishing gear is such an indiscriminate killing machine resulting in such high mortality rate of juveniles and bycatch. There is NO environmentally friendly longline gear. But.....longline gear is responsible for the majority of our catch as a country.

Pelagic longline gear has its place in areas of the ocean that arent so critical to maintaining a healthy fishery. However, in the area of Central and South Florida, the fish are "funneled" into a small area which has been collectively termed a "nursery" area, an area vital to maintenance of a healthy fishery, and area that cannot sustain commercial fishing in this manner. Longliners will continue to want to get in here, because of location and other target species, and possibly with aid from the government because, as mentioned we HAVE to get our numbers up.

The "solution" to longline fishing in our area has been the emergence of the bouy fishery. Nobody is sure what affect the amount of fish the bouy gear is harvesting has, or will have on the maintanence of a healthy fishery. But......no matter how many fish it does harvest, small fish are being released almost immediately and there is literally no bycatch, so long as the fishery is regulated and enforced.

So....to put it simply....Longlines, Bouy Gear, Rec Fisherman are all part of the solution. We all want a healthy fishery. It is not us vs them, as rec v. commercial, but us vs. other competing foriegn nations.

Without global reform, tariff reform, ICCAT reform, and measures along these lines....this is the problem, and it is gettin more serious with each passing day.

Right now....all the government cares about is reaching that quota so while you may percieve it as bullshit, trust me it is not. It is the truth.....the time is coming, and it could be devastating.

Our economic impact as recreational fisherman while it may be one of our good arguments in preserving the area off our coast from other domestic interests, is not going to save face in the bigger argument. ICCAT is not going to look at us and say, look how much money these guys are pumping into their own economy.

Anyways, just wanted to add my .02 as far as I understand it.....I may be slightly off in some areas....but some areas are open to discretion of those evaluating the situation.

Johnny

[Another Grand]

Woops....Risktaker beat me to it.

One last note, while I understand your view, please take note of the heritage of commercial fishing in our country......its goes back hundreds of years, way farther than sport fishing as it is known today.

This is a heritage that I would like to protect as an American. I just want to make sure that we are the world leaders in preservation measures to ensure that there is always enough fish to catch.

[RiskTaker]

Johnny:

No, that is good that we posted at about the same time, so close that neither one knew what the other was writing. We are certainly not participating in the exact same circle of fishing influences but look at how closely these two posts came out. I suppose I will have to second your statements.

Actually, I think it is amazing! Good post, mate . It seems like some commonality of thought going on here. Imagine that.

I'm not sure if I'm 100% technically correct either but it all starting from a Ballyhu. After a hard day of perpetual motion I just sat down to read a few posts. The next thing you know it the hands took over the keyboard and wouldn't let go until I was finished; well, except to crack open another Bud.

[ballyhu]

RT I respect your opinion...it is obviously well thought out. I didn't have an opinion until recently. I was lucky enough to rec fish for swords 30 years ago. I know how good it was. I was thrilled when the longliners went bye bye. I was able to pursue a sport again that I sorely missed. I too looked forward to the average fish increasing in size. I'm not sure it's happened. The ramifications of the daytime stuff scares the crap out of me. I make a point to take newbies out with me. I've seen the look in their eyes when a cherry gets popped. I'm no longer a young man, so I can tell you that I'm looking at the future...and I wonder where it's headed. I have come to realize that I have zero patience for any commercial practices that rob my children of what I think is their right to enjoy this great fishery. History shows that commercial interests have decimated every fishery that they were allowed to plunder. There is no clearer example than what happened right here. I'm no communist, but somehow I feel that this fishery should be managed for the greater good; and I don't feel that the greater good is enbodied by commercial interests, no matter how green. I don't trust the commercially driven regulatory agencies to decide for me whats best for my children and recreational fishermen. It's taken me five years to formulate my opinion, but there you have it, with all due respect.

[RiskTaker]

Ballyhu:

Your opinion is good and is respected as well. You have a longer time view perspective than I do (although I have been living in Florida since 1965), so your observations are important to be conveyed to the younger crowd. And the present day younger crowd will carry that torch to the next generation, providing we can stay at relative peace until then, albeit we are engaged in War, as we speak.

I think that I can agree with you that commercial fishing should not be totally governed by Commercial lobbying but rather by a well balanced management board that has the philosophy of sustainable yield as the unwaivering charter. Gollie, this is starting to sound like the role of N.M.F.S. . But I suspect that the advisory panel may still have too much of a mix of Commercial interest, epsecially PLL style influences.

Perhaps, where we differ quite a bit in opinions is that I cannot ethically dismiss Commerical fishing activities as a non-important aspect of fisheries harvest. You bet, I wish it was only about the recreational fishermen and their small tribe of needy mouths to feed. Unfortunately to say, we have too many people on the planet today to permit that Draconian style of mentality.

We have Big lots to feed: but it is agreed that we shouldn't harvest it all for today. We need to preserve a stable and genetically fit biomass for eons to come but we should not go totally into left field either.

[The BEAST]

This antique argument of feeding the masses needs to take a back shelf. It is old and tired.

I respect and embrace the need to feed the people. But it is fish protein that is necessary to fill that need and there is a multitude of other, more prevalent species throughout the world, to complete that task. Let's be realistic and honest. Are we REALLY talking about feeding the masses at well over $10 p/lb. retail? The majority of the so called "masses" in the middle to lower income of America alone, can't afford and won't purchase this protein for their family. The humor lies in the fact that not a single commercial guy would bother buying even a state SPL if it were to fish for Grunts and Porgies. Back in the day, the smaller fish were the mainstay of the fish markets. That was truly feeding the masses.

If the need is so great, when will they be commercially fishing Blue Marlin again? Let's turn the PLL loose on all the large fish of the ocean... WE NEED TO FEED PEOPLE, RIGHT??? If this is a reality we should reopen the Snook and Redfish, too. A good Goliath Grouper would feed a neighborhood block. Let's reopen them to commercial fishing too. Let's just fish all of 'em 'til they're gone. PEOPLE NEED TO EAT! How ridiculous does that sound to you? Honestly?

Let's get realistic for one minute. Today, it is all about the $$$$$$$ (Benjamin's) and we all know that. Why else would someone purchase a $20K directed permit. This market caters to the more affluent Americans not to the hamburger eating, working class. At least a head of beef can deliver everything from Filet to hamburger, thus truly feeding the entire "masses" of all "classes". So, enough of this lame excuse to justify commercial fishing of Florida Swordfish.

Since we have this dire NEED to feed, why don't we allow recreational sale? I will be right there in line to get my permit. I will put 3 more bodies on board and fish hard to catch my 4... EVERYDAY. If it is good enough for the buoy guys to reap an unlimited catch per day then I will get all I can get as well. If the NEED is so great why did we ban the PLL? Equal access... reach the quota... we NEED to FEED these people...

In all sincerity, I do agree we need commercial fishermen to feed the people who don't have access to the water but I don't believe Florida Swordfish is a necessary target to complete this task.

[Captain Ollie]

Actually, now that you've brought it up Jim......

It sounds just as ridiculous to me as does the "NEED" to go out in a triple engine phallic symbol and yank fish out of the water with your big fancy overpriced gold winches, only to pose for a pic, all in the name of "FUN CATCH AND RELEASE RECREATION."
When you really think about it, EXACTLY WHAT is the point of that?
So a bunch of guys can get together, get drunk, high, and have the vessels IQ drop to the point that they feel its neccessary to broadcast their crude humor over the VHF for the whole world to hear, all in the name of "HAVING A GOOD TIME."
I wonder how good a time the fish is having slowly suffocating to death while waiting for somebody to figure out how to use the damn camera??
Oops! Hold on I blinked......Hang on there Mr. Fishey.....Gotta take another one. Crap! His tail ain't in this pic! Take another one!! Oh damn! Wait! We can't throw it back yet! Now what??!! Everybody hasn't had a chance to pose with you Mr. Fishey!!......Just hang on there another second!!
WE NEED TO GET AT LEAST ONE GOOD PICTURE!!
Hell, I remember someone posted up a bunch of pics a while back of some clearly undersized swords caught during the day while trolling. Someone on the boat should have put sunscreen on the poor fish, cause it was evident they were in as much danger of getting sunburned as they were of slowly suffocating to death.
BUT MAN!! THOSE PICS!! GOTTA GET 'EM!! THEY ARE AWESOME!!

[Captain Ollie]

Insomnia inspires me.....

I just had another great idea!!

Jim, I know that you and a bunch of other guys out there also like to go hunting. I don't hunt, but I can only imagine how much fun it is to sit quietly in a cold wet tree, for hours on end, dressed in simulated foliage attire, while waiting for for a Bambi to walk by so you can blast it with more firepower than a terrorist.
Instead of using bullets and killing it, you could just shoot it with a tranquilizer dart and wait for the creature to go to pass out. THEN, you can rush over and take as many pics as you want while, Bambi, except for a hangover, is none the worse for wear once it wakes up.
What a novel concept...Catch and release hunting.
Just think of all the creatures you could blast away at all day long. Not to mention all those cool pics you'll be getting, Just think how awesome it would be to be able to shoot it yet still let it go so you can blow it away another day!!

[CaptKen]

Xxxxxxxxxx

[RiskTaker]

Jim:

When I mentioned feeding the masses, I did not mean to supply every "fish soup" kitchen from coast to coast. But of course, you had to spin my point to the extreme, in far left field. Since we already know you by now, I suppose we simply need to expect your comments will never settle in the median ground, but only on either side of the bell curve, and rarely in the norm of popular territory.

When I meant feeding the masses, I meant catching more fish than just what a recreational angler would catch and distrubute amongst his immediate circle of influence of family/friends. More fish need to be caught so the local fish markets have swordfish to sell in the $10-20/lb. price range. Yes, this is only intended for those that can afford or are willing to splurge for fresh fish.

So, from your comments, I will try not to exaggerate too much by I will take it that only those people that can actually get out on the water would then be able to catch fish, (not for sale mind you). By taking the back shelf, that would mean that commercial fishing would still exist but only on a diminished level. Am I understanding this correctly?

Well that ain't going to fly either.

Going back to the 3-day old Stale bread philosophy of N.M.F.S. They are also chartered with utilizing the resources to a maximal level of utilization, in addition to preserving a sustainable fishery. Consequently, their goals & objective are to be centered smack dab at the interection of the Guns and Butter curve graphs, where they substitute resource utilization and resource sustainability for those curve lines.

So you see, we will never be able to have constructive dialogues with N.M.F.S or other people even, if we are focused on either one of those curved plots alone. We can work together constructively when we agree to target that intersection point and agree to work with the best quality data that science can muster to ensure those curve lines are placed in the correct map points.

If we understand this basic economics concept, we are now empowered to collaborate to achieve this or to change the rules of the game.

[Tal-Jen]

Capt Jim, I guess what you are saying is that if the NMFS gives out rec permits to sell their fish then that is ok because YOU can sell them. But if the commercial guys sell their fish then that is terrible. You know that you seem to have this DON'T CONFRONT ME attitutde, and this just wrong. If what you are doing is ok but what everyone else is doing is wrong then in my book you are a communist or a facist.

[Another Grand]

Originally Posted by The BEAST

Since we have this dire NEED to feed, why don't we allow recreational sale? I will be right there in line to get my permit. I will put 3 more bodies on board and fish hard to catch my 4... EVERYDAY. If it is good enough for the buoy guys to reap an unlimited catch per day then I will get all I can get as well. If the NEED is so great why did we ban the PLL? Equal access... reach the quota... we NEED to FEED these people...

In all sincerity, I do agree we need commercial fishermen to feed the people who don't have access to the water but I don't believe Florida Swordfish is a necessary target to complete this task.

1. Rectrational fish currently count against the incidental quota. See below for citation.

2. NMFs just added language to CFR50 635.28 to define a closure for closing the incidental quota (see below for language). NMFS also just opened up the incidental quota to 30? fish per trip to get squid trawlers to put more tonnage on the tab.

3. If the recs and other incidental guys combined reach the quota, their fishery will close.

Why recs dont report their fish, this is traditionally why folks in the know have said if you do you will cut off.... But now they have the internet reporting to encourage it. And.....

Why might NMFS just allow sales of rec fish?
To force recs to report when they sell. but when the quota is full, then it will close just like bluefin tuna, and you wont be able to fish anymore. I would imagine any general category they create would be limited to rod and reel, but they may throw in buoys too.

CFR 50 635.27(c)(1)(i)(B) Swordfish Quota Categories
paraphrased for easy reading:

A swordfish from the North Atlantic swordfish stock landed by a vessel for which an incidental catch permit for swordfish or an HMS
Angling or Charter/Headboat permit has been issued, [or all fish caught after the effective date of a closure of the directed fishery] is counted against the incidental catch quota.

635.28 Closures.
* * * * *
(c) * * *
(2) Incidental catch closure. When the
annual incidental catch quota specified
in § 635.27(c)(1)(i) is reached, or is
projected to be reached, NMFS will file
with the Office of the Federal Register
for publication notification of closure.
From the effective date and time of such
notification until additional incidental
catch quota becomes available, no
swordfish may be landed in an Atlantic
coastal state, or be possessed or sold in
or from the Atlantic Ocean north of 5°
N. lat. unless the directed fishery is
open and the appropriate permits have
been issued to the vessel. In the event
of a directed and incidental North
Atlantic swordfish category closure,
South Atlantic swordfish may be
possessed in the Atlantic Ocean north of
5° N. lat. and/or landed in an Atlantic
coastal state on a vessel with longline
gear onboard, provided that the
harvesting vessel does not fish on that
trip in the Atlantic Ocean north of 5° N.
lat., the fish were taken legally from
waters of the Atlantic Ocean south of 5°
N. lat., and the harvesting vessel reports
positions with a vessel monitoring
system as specified in § 635.69.

[Another Grand]

If they make the decision to lets recs sell fish, then we are no longer recreational anglers. Every rec fisherman will have to comply with the Commercial Vessel Safety Act, additionally......

I have to ask, how they are going to ensure that every rec boat bringing a fish to market properly dressed and iced their fish? How will they enforce this? How are they going to regulate the fishery?

The price is still going to be shit, it is doing nothing to solve that. Maybe the increase in "rec" caught fish being brought to market, will drive the price even further to the point where the bouy fisherman cant justify going fishing, especially if gas keeps going up.

You guys can keep beating around the bush throwing out ideas on why you believe this or that, the simple fact of the matter is the amount of money we spend, or the fact that the fishery is "recovering" are just stall tactics to throw at the government to serve our own interests as recreational fisherman.
We need to catch fish. It isnt about "feeding the masses" it is about preserving our fishery for all Americans rather than allowing rediculous "global world" doctrines force us to share with other countries. You can come up with whatever "conservation" theories you would like, they are not going to solve any problems and are not based on the reality of the situation.

[Jesslyn]

Originally Posted by Another Grand

If they make the decision to lets recs sell fish, then we are no longer recreational anglers. Every rec fisherman will have to comply with the Commercial Vessel Safety Act, additionally......

I have to ask, how they are going to ensure that every rec boat bringing a fish to market properly dressed and iced their fish? How will they enforce this? How are they going to regulate the fishery?
.

Johnny Great Points! How do they do this now for the commerical fishermen fishing out of CC's.?

[Another Grand]

Originally Posted by Jesslyn

Johnny Great Points! How do they do this now for the commerical fishermen fishing out of CC's.?

Coast Guard, FWC, and the Florida dept of Ag. are responsible for enforcement of their respective responsability of safety/fisheries laws and food safety.

From a friend....
"I actually was borded twice my last two trips out and they went thrugh everything. They are still a little uneducated on the buoy specific regs it seems, but as far as permits, ice, and safety gear they gave me an enema."

[The BEAST]

Captain Ollie,

I don't have a problem with what you are doing. I only have problems with people who disregard legalities. You apparently do it within all the laws provided. Don't take it personally. My comments were directed at that silly cliche' of "feeding the masses". I'd bet the farm that when the weather blows too hard to buoy fish that no one goes out to fish a patch reef for Grunts to "feed the people". There's no money in it.

As far as hunting goes... I gave that up in 1985 partially due to your exact reasoning. So speaking to me of hunting is a moot point. Even in my past hunting days, I never killed anything I didn't eat. I have NO pictures of any of my kills but I do have fond memories of the dinner table.

My boat is not a triple engine "phallic extension". My last boat weighed 12,500 pounds and only had twin 225 Hondas. Most likely, slower than yours. The new one has the Zuke 300's only because WorldCat wanted me to debut them on their boat. Probably still, slower than yours. Actually I wish I had my Hondas back for fuel reasons. I actually wish I had my old 27' T/Hondas back but our type of charter business requires bigger and better each year to remain competitive.

RT,

So what is wrong with standing on one side of the fence. There is yes and no, black and white, and then there is, maybe and gray. I don't like sitting on the fence, it makes my boys hurt.

My remarks about that infamous cliche' were simply to show how ludicrous it is. WE ALL KNOW that commercial fishing is a money driven business. A major portion of the reasoning behind the requested EFP's was to get access and target the Tuna in the Florida waters which fetch a higher market value.

I know I pizz you off but if you want this forum to be balanced you need some confrontation; otherwise it would be the RT show. If I make you uncomfortable, just let me know. What can be learned when all you ever hear is a long, tedious, diatribe with wishy-washy thoughts and no firm stance.

Another Grand (Johnny),

How do they regulate compliance of boat regs and catch quality with the permitted buoy gear fishery now? They don't, effectively. Imagine what is going to happen next year when the buoy fishery blossoms another 20 or 30 boats off Broward.

Yes rec numbers do count towards the quota but I surmise the reasoning behind the rec permit for sale would be that the almighty $$$$ would drive up the catch rate by this sector; while getting actual reported numbers towards the "QUOTA". I am not oblivious to your point that it could be a device to insinuate that these recs are now, in effect, commercial too! Point well taken.

You make the most sense out of all the comments I read on this forum. You see the BIG picture although I am still perplexed with how killing fish, saves fish. It is a more sensitive problem than managing a deer herd with limited habitat. The open ocean and its inhabitants have too many unknown factors to govern effectively at this time.