Roller Guides-Needed or not

Whalermatt · 02-05-2007, 01:03 PM

I just purchased a shimano 50w tiagra and was wondering if roller guides all the way up are needed or just on the tip would be nescessary. The reel has been spooled with braided backing and 80 lb mono. Thanks guys!

LIGHTS OUT · 02-05-2007, 01:11 PM

I've fished both and havn't had a problem either way. It's really more just personal preference.

quack quack · 02-05-2007, 01:16 PM

As long as the guides are large enough for knots ,bands,loops,etc.Also if you have braid and the guides are not sic then the braid could cut into the ring and that could be bad.

Broadbill-Pro · 02-05-2007, 02:30 PM

For gods sake, I wish the fishing questions would not appear on the conservation forum

had to do it!

miamiangler1 · 02-05-2007, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whalermatt

I just purchased a shimano 50w tiagra and was wondering if roller guides all the way up are needed or just on the tip would be nescessary. The reel has been spooled with braided backing and 80 lb mono. Thanks guys!

I`ve been wondering the same !!! I`d like to know how important it is to have all rollers ... or not ... is it more preferance of the angler ...before I buy my rod ...

Nick C · 02-05-2007, 07:53 PM

LOL.. may wanna have this moved to the main forum.

NO! I hate those big rollers! One more thing to maintain and they are $$$! Go with the big ceramic fugi guides and the biggest roller tip and you're set! Takes about $75-100 off the price of the rod too...

But again, personally prefence but I see no need for them esp with fishing braid. The round/heavier Hollow core will not cut the reguar guides...

miamiangler1 · 02-05-2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick C

LOL.. may wanna have this moved to the main forum.

NO! I hate those big rollers! One more thing to maintain and they are $$$! Go with the big ceramic fugi guides and the biggest roller tip and you're set! Takes about $75-100 off the price of the rod too...

But again, personally prefence but I see no need for them esp with fishing braid. The round/heavier Hollow core will not cut the reguar guides...

Hey Nick C you are right ... but it was a new member that wrote this .. so I think we should give him a break ... whalermatt welcome to the sword fish forum ...

JupiterSailfish · 02-05-2007, 10:29 PM

I agree with Sir Nick fishes a lot. Just the tip is good, personal preferance.

Broadbill · 02-06-2007, 06:02 AM

Ceramics are fine until you get into a long battle. Rollers all the way for big fish, keep your line cool (no friction). I guess with all the braids and hollow-cores it doesn't matter as much anymore though!

Large rollers also allow sizeable knots, wind-ons, and terminal connections to clear without any friction or rubbing. If you have ever had a large fish up to your wind-on and it makes several more hard runs close to the boat you know what I mean. It rips all your knots and connections through your guides with a lot of force and friction, it is way smoother through rollers. If nothing else I would recommend a roller tip if you have all ceramic guides.

Flatsfish B · 02-06-2007, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broadbill

Ceramics are fine until you get into a long battle. Rollers all the way for big fish, keep your line cool (no friction). I guess with all the braids and hollow-cores it doesn't matter as much anymore though!

Large rollers also allow sizeable knots, wind-ons, and terminal connections to clear without any friction or rubbing. If you have ever had a large fish up to your wind-on and it makes several more hard runs close to the boat you know what I mean. It rips all your knots and connections through your guides with a lot of force and friction, it is way smoother through rollers. If nothing else I would recommend a roller tip if you have all ceramic guides.

With mono I agree, but fishing hollowcore/braid, the SIC guides produce less friction then roller guides

Broadbill · 02-06-2007, 10:00 AM

True, True!

reefling · 02-06-2007, 12:02 PM

eitherway i got rods with bolth although i do build most of my rods for other people with winthrops. anglers prefrence.

R

The BEAST · 02-06-2007, 12:24 PM

I'm not sure I agree with the opinion of less friction on any stationary ring guide opposed to a roller guide.

I have fished with carbide, silicone carbide, and the new Fuji silicone nitride (snII) guides with roller tips and stripper guide. I have also fished with full roller guide setups. The roller guides seem, to me, to be the best all around guide set up for mono, dacron, or super braid (spectra). I have found the longevity of the line increases in all cases. The AfTCO wind on is my choice of roller guides for a Sword rod. The AFTCO roller guides require no maintenance, other than a soap and water cleaning, just like all other ring guides.

Matter of fact, I am building 4 new rods as we speak, AFTCO bent stora-butts with short straight butts also (for angler preference), 5 AFTCO wind-on roller guides and the large SHD roller tip, on a 48.5" IGFA 50 E-glass blank. I am tired of using the fast taper stand-up blanks and having anglers break the rod by hyperflexing the tip working a fish directly under the boat. That happened again on my last trip.

My vote, especially for Swordfish applications is the wide roller guides, no doubt in my mind.

Capt. Jim
The BEAST

Beerman · 02-06-2007, 12:36 PM

Doesnt matter......I dont use them on my rods, just on the tip!! If you actually check half the rollers on most peoples rods, they probably dont roll anyway.

Like Nick said (Sounds like He got that from someone

) its less expensive and less maintenance

, but it comes down to personal preference once again as all things to do wiht this fishery

miamiangler1 · 02-06-2007, 12:43 PM

That`s true ,, most of the time I got to check my rollers on my stand up rods ... I check them every time I use the rods ...there`s always one or two that are stuck..

Broadbill · 02-06-2007, 01:03 PM

Soap, water, chamois, no problem. If your someone who doesn't take good care of your tackle I wouldn't own roller-guide rods!

Beerman · 02-06-2007, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broadbill

Soap, water, chamois, no problem. If your someone who doesn't take good care of your tackle I wouldn't own roller-guide rods!

I take care of my equipment, and still choose not to have to deal with the rollers (Although i did up grade to ball bearing tips, so i dont have to oil nearly as much either on just the tip, I AM LAZY). But like i said before its personal preference. Its way easier for me to come home half buzzed and tired and just rinse down and be done with them pretty much.

The BEAST · 02-06-2007, 01:13 PM

If you actually check half the rollers on most peoples rods, they probably dont roll anyway.

I check them every time I use the rods ...there`s always one or two that are stuck..

I really can't say that I have found that to be the case. I recently redid a rod for someone that was 20 years old with the old standard Aftco rollers. At first glance it appeared that some were stuck but by making a mark on the roller with a marking pen, it later confirmed they were indeed turning freely. Sometimes it appears they are stuck. Put a mark on them and check them, that way you can be SURE they are turning. If you wash them well after your trip you shouldn't have any problems for many, many, years.

If a ring blows out on one of your guides when a fish surges a knot through the guide, it is not a simple 5 minute repair. The beauty of the roller guide is that you can unscrew and drop the roller, change the Aftcote bearing and reinstall in less time than it takes to smoke a cigarette, even while on the boat if necessary.

As for costs... WHAT IS CHEAP ABOUT SWORD FISHING? With all the money spent in pusuit of these fish, the last thing I want to do is try to save $20 in rod guides. The new Fuji snII guides (6-8 guides) will cost you about $50-$70 depending on sizes used. A set of 5 Aftco wind-ons for the same rod costs $65.95. Where is the savings? This also brings to mind that the rollers are much more efficient because it takes only 5 roller guides to do the duty of 8 ring guides.

Different strokes. Just my 2 cents!

Capt. Jim
The BEAST

Broadbill · 02-06-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beerman

I take care of my equipment, and still choose not to have to deal with the rollers (Although i did up grade to ball bearing tips, so i dont have to oil nearly as much either on just the tip, I AM LAZY). But like i said before its personal preference. Its way easier for me to come home half buzzed and tired and just rinse down and be done with them pretty much.

I must admit the half buzzed problem has lead me to improper care once or twice before!

Another Grand · 02-06-2007, 02:21 PM

Okay,

You guys are missing a few points here. First, there is no way in hell that anybody can argue that there is less friction on the SIC guides than on a roller guides.......sorry Barry not to be a dick but whoever told you that is plain wrong. Granted if a roller guide is not working, then there is an issue where you could start to make an argument for friction ...but not really. Guides are manufactured and priced according to the hardness of the material that makes up both the frame and the ring. Silicon Carbide(SIC) is the one of the hardest materials in production these days that is moderately priced. The only material harder is going to be of a titanium composite but those guides are way to pricey still.

Back to the discussion at hand.......somebody please explain to me how the hardness of the material would determine the friction between the line and the guide

The reason people always say put at least SIC on rods with Braid is because over time there has been evidence of damage to guides whereby the braid would slice into the less hard material the same it does to your hand. This would result in damage to the guide, which in turn would damage your line, which in turn could cause you to lose fish. This would also result in an unsmooth surface to the guide and thus = friction.

That being said, the majority of the stress during a fish battle that occurs on the line is gonna be on the tip. With the line going back and forth through the tip. Thus you can get by with a roller tip, and skipping roller guides and going with regular boat guides. I will let you know though, when you are building rods, you can charge almost as much for a rod without all the rollers or quality guides as you can the rods with hardloy cheap guides. The "acceptible" price difference isnt really there and therefore many rodbuilders/tackle dealers will sell you on the "only roller tip" theory because of the profit margin increase. Would you like to see how much a set of those cheap boat guides cost wholesale? I could break down all the components for you but what is that really going to accomplish, lets just say you could get a complete set of those guides for under $20.

Do I think that you are going to lose fish, if you choose to forego rollers and SIC guides.....I couldnt be sure. But......you could make the same argument for Okumas. It is the nature of everybody to ignore what everybody says and take the cheaper route when they gear up for swording. Only to inevitably, spend twice as much money having to replace all the initial gear a couple years down the road.

My point is this........while foregoing quality guides might not make you lose a fish, it will cost you money. Those Roller Guides and SIC guides WILL NOT BREAK. You can beat em, step on em, drive over em, whatever. However, anything less than the two of them and I guarantee you eventually you will have issues with your rod down the road......most likely from banging a guide against the boat or something similar. So.....if you are looking at a difference of say $250 or $350 for a rod without and then a rod with rollers, you might want to think about it. You want that rod to last. Maintenance of roller guides is very simple and takes but a couple of minutes with a power screw gun.

Anyways, just my .02

Give the fish a little more respect, even if it means shelling out a little more cash. You can skimp on some aspects of fishing, but your terminal tackle shouldnt be one of them when your chasing a fish that could weigh upwards of 500lbs

02-05-2007, 01:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
Whalermatt Grunt Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5	Roller Guides-Needed or not I just purchased a shimano 50w tiagra and was wondering if roller guides all the way up are needed or just on the tip would be nescessary. The reel has been spooled with braided backing and 80 lb mono. Thanks guys!

02-05-2007, 01:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
quack quack Old Salt Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: lake worth Best Catch: 25lb codfish 5 yrs old first hanger Posts: 4,527	As long as the guides are large enough for knots ,bands,loops,etc.Also if you have braid and the guides are not sic then the braid could cut into the ring and that could be bad. __________________ Either we can be a part of the solution or we can be the victims of a decision.

02-05-2007, 07:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
Nick C Grander Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: 900-1600' of water Boat: 25' Bluewater(Rough C's) Best Catch: est. 120lb Tarpon on 16lb tippet(fight time was 12 min) Occupation: Squid rigger Posts: 2,154	LOL.. may wanna have this moved to the main forum. NO! I hate those big rollers! One more thing to maintain and they are $$$! Go with the big ceramic fugi guides and the biggest roller tip and you're set! Takes about $75-100 off the price of the rod too... But again, personally prefence but I see no need for them esp with fishing braid. The round/heavier Hollow core will not cut the reguar guides... __________________ "Put your buoys out... we're comin' in HOT!"

02-06-2007, 06:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
Broadbill Hooked Up Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ft. Pierce, Fl Posts: 328	Ceramics are fine until you get into a long battle. Rollers all the way for big fish, keep your line cool (no friction). I guess with all the braids and hollow-cores it doesn't matter as much anymore though! Large rollers also allow sizeable knots, wind-ons, and terminal connections to clear without any friction or rubbing. If you have ever had a large fish up to your wind-on and it makes several more hard runs close to the boat you know what I mean. It rips all your knots and connections through your guides with a lot of force and friction, it is way smoother through rollers. If nothing else I would recommend a roller tip if you have all ceramic guides. Last edited by Broadbill : 02-06-2007 at 06:10 AM.

02-06-2007, 12:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
reefling Hooked Up Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: palm beach Boat: reefling out of palm beach Best Catch: 300lb sword Occupation: fishing Posts: 185	eitherway i got rods with bolth although i do build most of my rods for other people with winthrops. anglers prefrence. R __________________ [url] custom rods 561-596-7180

02-05-2007, 01:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
LIGHTS OUT Hooked Up Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Plantation, Fl. Boat: 26' Open Fish/ Twin 200 Best Catch: 300+ Swordy Occupation: entrepreneur Posts: 557	I've fished both and havn't had a problem either way. It's really more just personal preference.

02-05-2007, 02:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
Broadbill-Pro Grander Join Date: Jan 2006 Best Catch: When I look at a Commercial Fishing Vessel I see 300 million Americans and you only see the Crew Posts: 1,294	For gods sake, I wish the fishing questions would not appear on the conservation forum had to do it!

02-05-2007, 10:29 PM	#8 (permalink)
JupiterSailfish Hooked Up Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Jupiter, FL Best Catch: 170lb Swordy - Tag Teamed it Posts: 579	I agree with Sir Nick fishes a lot. Just the tip is good, personal preferance.

02-06-2007, 10:00 AM	#11 (permalink)
Broadbill Hooked Up Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ft. Pierce, Fl Posts: 328	True, True!

02-06-2007, 12:24 PM	#13 (permalink)
The BEAST Charter Captain Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Miami/upper Keys Boat: 2007 WorldCat 330TE / 300 Suzuki's Best Catch: every catch is my best catch Occupation: charter captain Posts: 842	I'm not sure I agree with the opinion of less friction on any stationary ring guide opposed to a roller guide. I have fished with carbide, silicone carbide, and the new Fuji silicone nitride (snII) guides with roller tips and stripper guide. I have also fished with full roller guide setups. The roller guides seem, to me, to be the best all around guide set up for mono, dacron, or super braid (spectra). I have found the longevity of the line increases in all cases. The AfTCO wind on is my choice of roller guides for a Sword rod. The AFTCO roller guides require no maintenance, other than a soap and water cleaning, just like all other ring guides. Matter of fact, I am building 4 new rods as we speak, AFTCO bent stora-butts with short straight butts also (for angler preference), 5 AFTCO wind-on roller guides and the large SHD roller tip, on a 48.5" IGFA 50 E-glass blank. I am tired of using the fast taper stand-up blanks and having anglers break the rod by hyperflexing the tip working a fish directly under the boat. That happened again on my last trip. My vote, especially for Swordfish applications is the wide roller guides, no doubt in my mind. Capt. Jim The BEAST Last edited by The BEAST : 02-06-2007 at 12:32 PM.

02-06-2007, 12:36 PM	#14 (permalink)
Beerman Hooked Up Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Stuart, FL Posts: 621	Doesnt matter......I dont use them on my rods, just on the tip!! If you actually check half the rollers on most peoples rods, they probably dont roll anyway. Like Nick said (Sounds like He got that from someone ) its less expensive and less maintenance , but it comes down to personal preference once again as all things to do wiht this fishery __________________ Word of Wisdom: Many a problem will solve itself, if we forget it and go FISHING!!!!

02-06-2007, 12:43 PM	#15 (permalink)
miamiangler1 Grander Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: north miami, keystone point Boat: ,live bait ,deep dropping,swordfishing Best Catch: 7ft sailfish on 10#test with diawaBG20, 100#tarpon on 6#test baitcaster bass rod Occupation: selfemployed,real estate, painter,model builder Posts: 1,547	That`s true ,, most of the time I got to check my rollers on my stand up rods ... I check them every time I use the rods ...there`s always one or two that are stuck..

02-06-2007, 01:03 PM	#16 (permalink)
Broadbill Hooked Up Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ft. Pierce, Fl Posts: 328	Soap, water, chamois, no problem. If your someone who doesn't take good care of your tackle I wouldn't own roller-guide rods!

02-06-2007, 01:13 PM	#18 (permalink)
The BEAST Charter Captain Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Miami/upper Keys Boat: 2007 WorldCat 330TE / 300 Suzuki's Best Catch: every catch is my best catch Occupation: charter captain Posts: 842	If you actually check half the rollers on most peoples rods, they probably dont roll anyway. I check them every time I use the rods ...there`s always one or two that are stuck.. I really can't say that I have found that to be the case. I recently redid a rod for someone that was 20 years old with the old standard Aftco rollers. At first glance it appeared that some were stuck but by making a mark on the roller with a marking pen, it later confirmed they were indeed turning freely. Sometimes it appears they are stuck. Put a mark on them and check them, that way you can be SURE they are turning. If you wash them well after your trip you shouldn't have any problems for many, many, years. If a ring blows out on one of your guides when a fish surges a knot through the guide, it is not a simple 5 minute repair. The beauty of the roller guide is that you can unscrew and drop the roller, change the Aftcote bearing and reinstall in less time than it takes to smoke a cigarette, even while on the boat if necessary. As for costs... WHAT IS CHEAP ABOUT SWORD FISHING? With all the money spent in pusuit of these fish, the last thing I want to do is try to save $20 in rod guides. The new Fuji snII guides (6-8 guides) will cost you about $50-$70 depending on sizes used. A set of 5 Aftco wind-ons for the same rod costs $65.95. Where is the savings? This also brings to mind that the rollers are much more efficient because it takes only 5 roller guides to do the duty of 8 ring guides. Different strokes. Just my 2 cents! Capt. Jim The BEAST

02-06-2007, 02:21 PM	#20 (permalink)
Another Grand Hooked Up Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 989	Okay, You guys are missing a few points here. First, there is no way in hell that anybody can argue that there is less friction on the SIC guides than on a roller guides.......sorry Barry not to be a dick but whoever told you that is plain wrong. Granted if a roller guide is not working, then there is an issue where you could start to make an argument for friction ...but not really. Guides are manufactured and priced according to the hardness of the material that makes up both the frame and the ring. Silicon Carbide(SIC) is the one of the hardest materials in production these days that is moderately priced. The only material harder is going to be of a titanium composite but those guides are way to pricey still. Back to the discussion at hand.......somebody please explain to me how the hardness of the material would determine the friction between the line and the guide The reason people always say put at least SIC on rods with Braid is because over time there has been evidence of damage to guides whereby the braid would slice into the less hard material the same it does to your hand. This would result in damage to the guide, which in turn would damage your line, which in turn could cause you to lose fish. This would also result in an unsmooth surface to the guide and thus = friction. That being said, the majority of the stress during a fish battle that occurs on the line is gonna be on the tip. With the line going back and forth through the tip. Thus you can get by with a roller tip, and skipping roller guides and going with regular boat guides. I will let you know though, when you are building rods, you can charge almost as much for a rod without all the rollers or quality guides as you can the rods with hardloy cheap guides. The "acceptible" price difference isnt really there and therefore many rodbuilders/tackle dealers will sell you on the "only roller tip" theory because of the profit margin increase. Would you like to see how much a set of those cheap boat guides cost wholesale? I could break down all the components for you but what is that really going to accomplish, lets just say you could get a complete set of those guides for under $20. Do I think that you are going to lose fish, if you choose to forego rollers and SIC guides.....I couldnt be sure. But......you could make the same argument for Okumas. It is the nature of everybody to ignore what everybody says and take the cheaper route when they gear up for swording. Only to inevitably, spend twice as much money having to replace all the initial gear a couple years down the road. My point is this........while foregoing quality guides might not make you lose a fish, it will cost you money. Those Roller Guides and SIC guides WILL NOT BREAK. You can beat em, step on em, drive over em, whatever. However, anything less than the two of them and I guarantee you eventually you will have issues with your rod down the road......most likely from banging a guide against the boat or something similar. So.....if you are looking at a difference of say $250 or $350 for a rod without and then a rod with rollers, you might want to think about it. You want that rod to last. Maintenance of roller guides is very simple and takes but a couple of minutes with a power screw gun. Anyways, just my .02 Give the fish a little more respect, even if it means shelling out a little more cash. You can skimp on some aspects of fishing, but your terminal tackle shouldnt be one of them when your chasing a fish that could weigh upwards of 500lbs