Sword poachers busted 03/06/09

[maverick18b]

Originally Posted by Tackle Engineer

The Guy that owns the boat Scott Leon I am told by a very reliable source that happens to be in my office knows him .... Without saying what happened heres the reference and its not my words :

"Scott leon the regestered boat owner is a dick , he had a charter boat, a bait bussiness and general all around putz." " This time they just got caught !!"

They should really burn um

" Its time to stop living by the Words, " They didnt save the buffalo for me"

There is no excuse for taking shorts

Scotty is one of the best fishermen i know...hes taught me alot the few times i've fished with him. Scotty just owns the boat they were on when they were caught with the fish.

[mneptune]

Originally Posted by CAPTINMITCH

Greed is different than stupidity.

Unfortunately, they are often intertwined.

[gaffandrelease]

buddy and scot werent even on the boat it was those two kids shane and mike who were on the boat with the undersize swordfish

[Tackle Engineer]

Originally Posted by maverick18b

Scotty is one of the best fishermen i know...hes taught me alot the few times i've fished with him. Scotty just owns the boat they were on when they were caught with the fish.

Maverick18b:

Heres a followup for from a conversation with one of my buddys that knows Scotty on my way into work this AM:
"This happened a month ago and Scotty has been having a hard enough time with everything else that he has goin on"
" Scotty would not have let that happen if he was there"
" He is a good guy in a bad situation"


heres my take on the story
Since I do not know Scotty I can only say that I feel bad that Scotty trusted theses guys with his boat

Unfortunately FWC Lt. Dave Bingham takes no prisoners as he has been prosecuting to the full extent to all he encounters with a violation. Look this guy up

Scotty is supposed to be responsible for his vessel and actions aboard his vessel , even when not present

We should all take a good look and learn the lesson of consequence that we risk beyond our control when loaning our boat

[Ron.38 Special]

Originally Posted by quack quack

Keeping shorts was just stupid. A 25 lb fish that you will get 1.50 maybe for. So for an extra $75 they got a $10,000 fine. He might have to sell that permit to pay the fine.

I believe this guy has a dealer permit also. Lets him cut those shorts up and sell direct to your favorite seafood establishment......



And BP, this guy has a reputation for keeping shorts, and we have been waiting for FWC to catch him. He's been on the "watch list" for a while.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by Ron.38 Special

And BP, this guy has a reputation for keeping shorts, and we have been waiting for FWC to catch him. He's been on the "watch list" for a while.

Spoke to Buddy today, neither he (permit holder) nor the vessel Owner were onboard that night, fact is that he was fishing on another vessel at the time.

The Crew was supplied with a 47'' string that was used to measure the fish, their version is that all 3 fish measured were +47''. Buddy did not see the fish, this was the report his crew gave him. FWC claims that Caudel length was .5'' under 29''.

I'll challenge anyone's claim that every fish with the LJFL of 47'' has a Caudal length that is equal to or exceeds 29'' or is over 33 pounds dressed weight. It is ridiculas to even think that all swordfish have the same body type. I suppose if your going to dress a fish at sea, then a measurement that can be verified post processing should be used. That would eliminate 33 pounds dressed weight since that can not be verified before processing the fish and also eliminate LJFL because the head and tail are removed. So why give them the option? NMFS needs to pick one standard.

.


1. 47" (119 cm) lower jaw fork length (LJFL): Straight line measurement from the tip of the
lower jaw to the fork of the tail.

2. 29" (73 cm) cleithrum to caudal keel (CK): Curved length measurement from cleithrum to
caudal keel.

3. 33 lbs (15 kg) dressed weight (dw): The carcass of the swordfish must weigh 33 lbs after it
has been headed and gutted.

[dpdash]

So the fish in question were .5" short? Doesn't sound like they were acting the way many have assumed they were. Short is short but I'll reserve judgement until all the facts come out. Thanks for the info on both sides.

[Broadbill-Pro]

I did not see the fish, but all too many times judgement is passed without hearing both sides of the story. We have already heard that FWC was gunning for them, I have played this game way too long not to know that enforcement is almost always "encouraged" by the competition and most of the times they have dirty hands themselves.

These Guys may be guilty as charged, I suggest that FWC have photos to prove their case.

Here are the methods of measuring a fish from NMFS web-site. According to this photo the Caudal length measurement starts from the back of the gill plate, a gill plate that is tossed overboard before FWC witnessed the fish. Do we measure from the inside of the collar? or where the skin turns from bronze to white outside the collar? Either way 1/2 of an inch would be hard to convict by.




Swordfish can be measured along the body contour from the cleithrum (semicircular bony structure that forms the posterior edge of the gill opening ?????) to the anterior portion of the caudal keel (CK). This measurement must be made at the point on the cleithrum that provides the shortest possible cleithrum to caudal keel measurement. WTF???? Swordfish can also be measured fromthe tip of the lower jaw to the fork of the tail, for a lower jaw fork length (LJFL).

[CARBEN COPY]

I agree with everything BBP has said, If it was indeed just .5" short. To try and convict on this alone would be pointless in my opinion as well as a waste of time, energy, and money that could be better spent elsewhere.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Last night I spent time with two NMFS Biologists that are in the front row of swordfish regulations. I can tell you without a doubt that the photo provided by NMFS of "CK" caudal length is flawed. The correct measurement would be a minimum of 2'' to 3'' further under the gill plate and not where the photo indicates.




After harvesting a mass amount of swordfish over 30 years, by NMFS definition I could not tell you where to measure from in the gill plate area. By example of the photo I would measure from the back of the gill plate. According to information I recieved yesterday, the photo I posted above in the correct way to measure "CK".

[bajakian]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Spoke to Buddy today, neither he (permit holder) nor the vessel Owner were onboard that night, fact is that he was fishing on another vessel at the time.

The Crew was supplied with a 47'' string that was used to measure the fish, their version is that all 3 fish measured were +47''. Buddy did not see the fish, this was the report his crew gave him. FWC claims that Caudel length was .5'' under 29''.

I'll challenge anyone's claim that every fish with the LJFL of 47'' has a Caudal length that is equal to or exceeds 29'' or is over 33 pounds dressed weight. It is ridiculas to even think that all swordfish have the same body type. I suppose if your going to dress a fish at sea, then a measurement that can be verified post processing should be used. That would eliminate 33 pounds dressed weight since that can not be verified before processing the fish and also eliminate LJFL because the head and tail are removed. So why give them the option? NMFS needs to pick one standard.

.


1. 47" (119 cm) lower jaw fork length (LJFL): Straight line measurement from the tip of the
lower jaw to the fork of the tail.

2. 29" (73 cm) cleithrum to caudal keel (CK): Curved length measurement from cleithrum to
caudal keel.

3. 33 lbs (15 kg) dressed weight (dw): The carcass of the swordfish must weigh 33 lbs after it
has been headed and gutted.

Vinny we often dress fish on the ocean but only if it is clearly large enough that it would also pass the dressed measurements. No one is going to take your word for it that the LFJL was legal after you butcher a fish. A Professional should know that and if it was close not cut the fish till you are off the water. You can always cut the bill off if you need the space since it doesnt impact on the measurement. They are either stupid or stupid and corrupt. There is no third option. Its possible they may have even tried to hide the fact that they were short by butchering them and hoping that they could BS some FWC official with the alternate measurement argument.

[bajakian]

Originally Posted by CARBEN COPY

I agree with everything BBP has said, If it was indeed just .5" short. To try and convict on this alone would be pointless in my opinion as well as a waste of time, energy, and money that could be better spent elsewhere.

When you bring in a lobster that is a half inch short, be sure to have that argument ready.

[JahMussa]

Good info Vinnie. It would be interesting to see where the LEO measured No Mercy's fish. If measuring from the back of the gill plate and it was .5 inch short... it's now becomes 2.5 to 3.5 inches short if measured from the collar. I wonder if they weighed the core. I'd like to see what it scaled at???? Inside the collar as NMFS told you is how I was told and but I know the picture posted only shows from the gill plate. Very confusing for sure.

So if we have a fish that is under 50 inches, we always leave the fork of the tail and the lower jaw intact. There can be no disputing that measurement and we make it very easy for LEO to check. A few weeks ago, a buoy guy had a few small fish and I would have sworn on a stack of bibles those cores were to small. Turns out the smallest core weighed in at 40#'s. Not sure what the CK would have measured though but as long as a commercial guy makes one of the 3 measurements, he's ok to kill the fish. However, a 47.1 inch fish that cores out below 33lbs can't be purchased from a dealer legally. But that core can be consumed or given away to your neighbors.... it just can't be sold.

The good news here is that this might make NMFS clear up the CK measurement and take some of the guess work away for LEO's.

-Tek

[Broadbill-Pro]

Learn something new everyday, after speaking to Ally I was informed the he leaves the lower jaw intact if a fish is questionable. I have never heard of this, then again I have not fished on a small stock of fish since the 1980's, pre-size limit era. Working over-seas the last 15 years we would never spend on freight to ship a fish that size, they went to the crew to feed the family. Ally also told me that he has weighed 47'' fish that dressed at 24 pounds. IMO the dressed weight alternative is difficult to determine at sea and the CK measurement is unclear. LJFL (aka ICATT standard) needs to be the only measurement that should apply. I would recommend my vessel to keep the lower jaw intact on any fish that measures under 50'' LJFL.

[CARBEN COPY]

Originally Posted by bajakian

When you bring in a lobster that is a half inch short, be sure to have that argument ready.

Not quite sure why your taking a crack at me, it was just my opinion. This particular situation seems extremely grey to me. Personally, I never cut fish on the ocean, just HOSED one, NOT! As far as the lobster comment, I don't lobster. I don't quite know why you would even bring that comment up. 1/2" on a 47" is quite different from 1/2" on a foot or so.

[quack quack]

Well you can run a marathon or run a 50 yd dash. But if you loose by a 1/2 inch you still lost in both races.

[bajakian]

Originally Posted by CARBEN COPY

Not quite sure why your taking a crack at me, it was just my opinion. This particular situation seems extremely grey to me. Personally, I never cut fish on the ocean, just HOSED one, NOT! As far as the lobster comment, I don't lobster. I don't quite know why you would even bring that comment up. 1/2" on a 47" is quite different from 1/2" on a foot or so.

Darren, not cracking at you. Just pointing out the legal is legal and illegal is illegal. You obviously dont agree as you are defending it in saying that it differs from a one foot fish to a 4 foot fish.

Sorry if you didnt like my analogy-did you like Quackers race analogy better? How about bedding a girl that is 17 years and 350 days old? Is that legal?

[NightCrawler]

Originally Posted by CARBEN COPY

Not quite sure why your taking a crack at me, it was just my opinion. This particular situation seems extremely grey to me. Personally, I never cut fish on the ocean, just HOSED one, NOT! As far as the lobster comment, I don't lobster. I don't quite know why you would even bring that comment up. 1/2" on a 47" is quite different from 1/2" on a foot or so.

Funny how you think 1/2 inch on a sword is no big deal, yet you always tell me you got 3 1/2 inches to give Maria

[quack quack]

Originally Posted by bajakian

How about bedding a girl that is 17 years and 350 days old? Is that legal?

It is in West Virginia!!!


Just a joke folks.

[Disco Lady]

COÑO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CARBEN COPY]

Originally Posted by bajakian

Darren, not cracking at you. Just pointing out the legal is legal and illegal is illegal. You obviously dont agree as you are defending it in saying that it differs from a one foot fish to a 4 foot fish.

Sorry if you didnt like my analogy-did you like Quackers race analogy better? How about bedding a girl that is 17 years and 350 days old? Is that legal?

Not defending it at all! Just my OPINION!! It is POSSIBLE that the fish' were bigger than 47" Not saying they are justified in their action but a snip to close could easily account for an inch. Bottom line, they probably should have kept it intact but they didn't.

[CARBEN COPY]

Originally Posted by bajakian

Darren, not cracking at you. Just pointing out the legal is legal and illegal is illegal. You obviously dont agree as you are defending it in saying that it differs from a one foot fish to a 4 foot fish.

Sorry if you didnt like my analogy-did you like Quackers race analogy better? How about bedding a girl that is 17 years and 350 days old? Is that legal?

Hey, I've got a good one!!!!!!!!!!
Is it legal to drink while driving a boat?

[Beerman]

[quack quack]

Originally Posted by CARBEN COPY

Hey, I've got a good one!!!!!!!!!!
Is it legal to drink while driving a boat?

Yes with a BAL of under .08.

[CARBEN COPY]

How about, let's have a discrepancy over a much larger fish like the one I'm still trying to catch.

[quack quack]

..............................

[Beerman]

Originally Posted by quack quack

Darren wtf is your problem?

that is funny QQ

[TTesterman]

... between Illeagle and unlawfull???

unlawful is against the law right???..

>
>
>
illeagle ... is a sick eagle ..

my take on this is the facts.. the guys were taking small fish! bottom line small fish ...don't do it! don't take small lobsters! Good people do stupid stuff sometimes so let the guys pay thier fines and deal with thier stuff in peace ... bet they don't ever have another one in the boat after this... hope the best for them and have fun fishing..! thier ages remind me of stupid stuff I did before also...

[billspilingup]

Originally Posted by bajakian

How about bedding a girl that is 17 years and 350 days old? Is that legal?

If the guy's 17, I think the only thing he has to worry about is her dad's shotgun. In any case, I'm sure she looked older.

Last time (a few years back) I was checked on the water with cores (rec fishing but didn't feel like dealing with it at the dock at 4am) on the boat, the FWC officers didn't even know what the minimum weights and lengths were. Then when they weighed, they couldn't decide on a weight. When they measured, they came up with three different lengths. After settling the debate, we were on our way.

After that experience, lynching these guys over a length or weight determined by the officers on fish that were right around the minimum size whole is unjustified. Only they know if the fish truly measured up but you've already found them guilty. Lady Justice and her blind scale of internet posing vs. knowing the whole story.

[TTesterman]

if your worried about keeping your swordfish fresh and he is 51" and it just will not fit in your '15' skiffs fish box',,, get a cheap nylon sleeping bag and slide your fish in there with some ice... sure beats cleaning him and getting hassel from the marine guys. you can gut the thing if you have to.. not as easy as just taking the head off though. these marine officers don't need confussion or someone pushing the limits either.