It's been Illegal for a long time

[Broadbill-Pro]

Jim,

All of the species you mention still have a market value, it's just that an alternative source has been established to supply the public. I can buy duck, geese and turkey anywhere. Just for kicks I Googled "Buy Venison" and came up with 895,000 hits. Get back with me when Swordfish is farm raised.

Mark,

I suppose it's where you stand in relation to the tightest regs. Surely thousands of square miles of "no fish" zones could be considered strict.

Again I will tell you that closing the FEC and Char. Bump had very little to do with swordfish recovery. Our area saw little to no decline until the fleet (40+ vessels) moved to the Passes of the Caribbean and the Mid-Atlantic Ridge mid 1980's. In those areas hundreds of large spawning fish where killed everyday, that's when the US East Coast felt the pain. You want to put it on PLL that's fine, but get the areas correct. I ran that theory by Dr. John Graves and Dr. Russ Nelson in Washington and neither could deny the main cause of the decline. That is why this fishery was well on it's way to recovery before the 2000 closure (it's documented), the Caribbean fleet had been pounded by economic hardship due to imports, a decline in production due to their own hands and loss of vessels to hurricanes prior to the 2000 closure.

I agree with you that unattended gear is not the ideal way to harvest seafood, but in some cases like swordfish it is the only possible way to meet market demand. So we impose the strictest regs possible in regard to by-catch and fishing zones while allow them to survive. Do you have a better way that does not include collecting unemployment?

[mneptune]

Originally Posted by Catch-All

Hey Vinnie - long time, no sea. I hope you are doing well.

Commercial Pelagic Longline vessels are not the most-regulated US fishing vessels. The fishing vessels in the sea clam and quahog industry are the most highly regulated. Cape May Foods, Seawatch and MidAtlantic are the biggest three players in that market.

The only reason the sword stocks (and other species) had a chance to rebuild was the NCMC's successful lawsuit to shut down the Straits of Florida & Charleston Bump swordfish nursery areas to the indiscriminate over-efficient methods used by commercial longlining. Perhaps what you meant was that by regulating longliners out of the Straits and the Bump, the swordfish stocks had a chance to rebuild?

I don't have a problem with commercial swordfishermen using the traditional methods of harpooning, rod & reel and potbuoys. But I have a big problem with the untended, indiscriminate, over-efficient gear that is inherent to longlining.

An additional issue is that the traditional swordfishing methods of harpooning, potbuoys and rod & reel are tended gear, allowing the commercial fisherman the opportunity to release unintended by-catch. In contrast, longline gear is un-tended gear and the unintended species it indiscriminately catches becomes BY-KILL.

Regards,

Mark
Catch-All
100 Fathom Fishing Club

I've been saying that all along!!

Getting back to the topic that started this post (Shark Finning).....

Vinnie,

I do have an honest question for you so please take a minute and think about it before responding OK?

I simply cannot understand or justify the killing of sharks just for their fins. Anyone who has even the slightest understanding of a sharks role in our oceans also understands their contribution to the overall health of the marine ecosystem. If you permit mass killings of an apex predator, it then effects the viability of all other species within that realm.

Do you believe that shark populations are healthy worldwide?

Do you believe that the value of a shark exists only in it's fins?

Do you believe that sharks are not an extremely important species in keeping our oceans healthy?

Do you believe commercial OR recreational fisherman should kill an entire animal for it's fins just so some asian jackass can have a bowl of soup?

If shark fishing / finning keeps going on at the rate it is there will be a total collapse of that fishery and detrimental effects to many other ocean species that rely on sharks whether they are predators or prey of sharks. Somehow, I think it will go the way of most commercial exploits..... Kill until there is no more, than find something else to kill until no more, than find something......well you get the picture?

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Jim,

All of the species you mention still have a market value, it's just that an alternative source has been established to supply the public. I can buy duck, geese and turkey anywhere. Just for kicks I Googled "Buy Venison" and came up with 895,000 hits. Get back with me when Swordfish is farm raised.

Thanks for the reply Vinnie. To begin with, ducks, geese, and turkey, commercially raised don't resemble or taste anything like their wild counterpart. The wild fowl and venison (over 50 species which fall into your google category) are still not commercially hunted even though their numbers are in excess of yesteryear. In YOUR world, you would open it up again, if it benefitted you directly.

I just wonder why you continually speak as if Swordfish is the only viable fish protein for market. The masses may want Sword meat but they can do without it. I seriously doubt ANY American will die of starvation or have a protein deficiency, without Swordfish meat. This was evident during the "Say NO to Swordfish" campaign. Obviously, most of the masses can't tell Grouper from an Asian catfish! Example: Order a "grouper" sandwich... it's potluck as to the true genus of the meat without a DNA test!

If you were truly retired, didn't have a permit, and not actively pursuing Swordfish for sale, you would carry a bit more clout with your opinions. But if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it's probably STILL a duck.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by mneptune

:

1. Do you believe that shark populations are healthy worldwide?

2. Do you believe that the value of a shark exists only in it's fins?

3. Do you believe that sharks are not an extremely important species in keeping our oceans healthy?

4. Do you believe commercial OR recreational fisherman should kill an entire animal for it's fins just so some asian jackass can have a bowl of soup?

1. I have listened to testimony by GOM and Mid-Atlantic Shark Fisherman that say Large and Small Coastal Sharks are as abundant today as ever. Ron can verify that he has heard the same. Your question is Worldwide, if you were ever to haul a PLL with 800 blue sharks on it in a single day your answer would be the same as mine. What this forum can not see past is that Swordfish, Marlin, Sailfish, Tuna and Sharks are racists and seldom mingle in great numbers. Any Fisherman who expects to have a job next voyage is bright enough to set gear on the intended species. I can take you to places in both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres where we could catch a blue shark on every bait set. I do not know of any vessels that target those areas.

On the other hand I believe that Coastal Sharks Worldwide have taken a beating.

2. Shark meat is a staple diet in many 3rd World Nations. In Brazil we were able to sell as much shark into Sao Paulo as could be caught. Most of it is converted into fish meal and distrubuted to the poor. Please erase the idea that sharks are discarded after being finned, that may have been true 20 years ago on vessels that conserved their fishholds for higher value product, but today due to regulations and market demand shark meat is retained.

3. Sharks are vital to the Oceans eco-system.

4. Well that was not very nice. Do you believe that sharks should be killed to cure cancer? If you have ever lost a loved one to the disease you would be lying if you said no. I am not comparing a bowl of soup with a life threatening disease, but I don't think the shark see's it that way. The fact is that sharks like all other species are a part of the food chain, now whether we are entitled to kill them or a plant for that matter is up for debate.

Those are the answers that a Judge or Fisheries Committee would give you.

My personal opinion is that sharks do not have the financial benefit that warrants killing them. That opinion is formulated from a vessel carrying 20 tons of swordfish and tuna onboard. Though I was forced to keep sharks when fishing from South America and Africa due to my role as Fish Master and not Owner, it was not my desire to waste time, gear or holding capacity for them. From 1978 to 1995 we released every shark caught with the hook intact and that would be our practice today if I were still at Sea.

Recreationally, I see no harm in a few sharks being caught for consumption.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Jim,

Give me a Fking break, for the past 4 years I did not have a permit and I had Fck All clout with you.

I bought a permit after realizing that day fishing produces more meat than I can consume. To date I have sold 2 fish from a single voyage, the proceed was just under $1000. The way I see it considering the purchase price of the permit I should have my capital investment back around 2020. Weren't you looking for a restricted species permit last time we spoke?

At times I have to remind you that you kill fish for a living. The other night at the Sword meeting Professor O told us that it does not matter how you kill them, if you do then you share the responsibility of their demise.

It must keep you up at night to know that in the past 7 months of pitiful fishing you can not point a finger at anyone. It makes one wonder if that 1983 Fort Lauderdale Sword Tournament with no fish weighed may not have been due to PLL? What am I thinking??? Ofcourse it was, RIGHT???

[mneptune]

Vinnie,

A very well thought out and articulate answer to my questions. Thank you.

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Jim,

Give me a Fking break, for the past 4 years I did not have a permit and I had Fck All clout with you.

I bought a permit after realizing that day fishing produces more meat than I can consume. To date I have sold 2 fish from a single voyage, the proceed was just under $1000. The way I see it considering the purchase price of the permit I should have my capital investment back around 2020. Weren't you looking for a restricted species permit last time we spoke?

At times I have to remind you that you kill fish for a living. The other night at the Sword meeting Professor O told us that it does not matter how you kill them, if you do then you share the responsibility of their demise.

It must keep you up at night to know that in the past 7 months of pitiful fishing you can not point a finger at anyone. It makes one wonder if that 1983 Fort Lauderdale Sword Tournament with no fish weighed may not have been due to PLL? What am I thinking??? Ofcourse it was, RIGHT???

Wow! Did I strike a nerve? I had refrained from posting on many subjects because I am tired of the constant banter! When it comes to your repetitive statements, I can't stop myself. So here is some repetition from me.

The reason why you have limited clout with me is because I see the "duck" in you! I called that out when you tried to tell everyone you were "retired"! You can take the man from the sea but you can't take the sea out of the seaman. This also pertains to me and the reason why I knock heads with you all the time. I couldn't imagine being without it, but I definitely come from very different viewpoint than yours.

What we discussed via our last phone call is that during these hard times it would be nice to have a restricted species license to be able to defray costs. As I told you then, it is almost impossible to get an RS permit now. Who can catch and sell $5000 worth of grunts in a year without becoming a full time commercial fisherman. I have NO intentions of ever becoming a commercial fisherman, I'm too conservation minded for that! But on the same note... during that conversation you told me your were building a 23' Mako to allow you to trailer up and down the coast economically, to where the fish are, because your Ocean Master was too awkward and expensive to trailer. Does that sound like someone who is a retired commercial fisherman and made claims to be a "recreational fisherman"???? Basically, no matter what was said during our conversation, you hold a permit to sell and I don't! A year ago you opined that daytime Sword fishing was going to hurt the stock worse than the PLL, yet you often fish as a daytimer now, WITH a permit. You are once again a commercial fisherman and I am still a recreational charter captain! I think most members of this forum recognize that!

If you are trying to portray me as part of the killing machine, you are sadly mistaken and barking up the wrong tree, Brother. Read some of my reports and you will see that I take different parties fishing (the masses) and they keep what they want but very seldom more than 3 or 4 fish. Look at the pics in my reports! Of those 3-4 fish we may keep they are never the same species day after day, as in your case, which in itself reduces the impact as well. In fact, I have killed the same number of Swordfish in the last 8 years that you did in one single daytime trip. Devon and I release just about all the fish that the customers (the masses) don't want to take home. Matter of fact we will even STOP fishing an area if the fish are being eaten by sharks. Even as a charter captain, allowing my customers (the masses) to keep whatever they can use within legal limits, we have more than likely, killed less poundage of fish per person, than you and others have (single handedly), in any given year. I have not SOLD a single pound of those fish, either! It pizzes me off when we return to the dock and the charter decides they don't want the fish, after all, and now we have to give them away instead of returning them to the sea.

As far as the comment about the 1980's tournament. I am not naive or stupid enough to beleive that the commercial PLL had no impact on the Swordfish off the Florida coast. Everytime commercial fishing is removed from an area or species that area or species begin to replenish, but it is time to get off this merry-go-round of deplete-replenish-deplete-replenish. That is your philosophy, as well as the thinking of the commercial sector, on the Swordfish in the FEC. One point that has never been rebuffed is that I know of no species that has been overfished solely by recreational fishermen. The recreational fisherman has to constantly undergo a barrage of regulations due to commercial overfishing. It is hard to explain to someone that they can only keep one fish over X inches while the boat next to them with the big 6" numbers on the bow, can fish them all day. The customers (the masses) I take out are not on your side! They'd rather eat chicken and be able to catch fish when they go fishing!

Go ahead and rebutt as I know you will! I'll finish by saying "Have a great day, Vinnie!"

[Broadbill-Pro]

Jim,

Gotta love ya!!, but this line kills me: recreational charter captain!

We now have a new Fishing sector. If there was such a person you certainly are the closest thing to it and believe it or not I respect you for it.

The new vessel does not have a permit nor can I afford to buy one for it. My intention was/is similiar to yours, to offset the cost of my recreational habit.

We have caught 3 other swords since the 2 that were sold, they were given away to my Guests. Was I Commercial fishing then? The gear type that I intend to use during my commercial operation (deep drop) does not allow me to exceed the recreational bag limit, though I can keep 20 fish per voyage it is not likely to catch more than 2 or 3. If my intention was to get rich off this deal I did not think it thru very well.

[mneptune]

Tune in again tomorrow boy's and girl's for another episode of "How The Sea Churns"

[TTesterman]

did you guys ever watch sharkwater??? good doc. about what was and is going on. every decision you make must be from the heart and taking a stand is well worth it. I tag some sharks and get fin clips with my girl and her fellow scientist lab rat creatures....it's actually fun when your crew is good. I kill stuff for eating and I think all men with a set should be able to rationalize whats wrong...