NMFS Announces decision to issue EFP's for the closed zone.

[CaptKen]

Harry that was a great read.
It sickens me also, I fished out front in the 70's and watched them go away.
I was out the other evening listening to a buoy guy on the radio that didn't even know the rules about the 29"-33lb deal, He was asking his buddy the rules over the radio, I told him if you have to measure him then throw him over, He comes back and says Hell no ! thats gas money. If its getting to the point they have to kill 33lb plugs, that is sad. But I know, dont worry, The colledge boys say the stock is recovered.

[Broadbill-Pro]

[quote=Harry Klauber;76710]To the Broadbill-Pro
Your writings clearly show that your experience with swordfishing is no doubt beyond that of anyone posting on this forum. Have you ever heard of Phil Ruhle? He was a pioneer in the swordfish longline fishery out of Montauk in the 50's (going back to far for you?). In an old wooden single diesel 65 foot "tub" we would make 10 - 15 day trips when swordfish could be seen finning and all anyone was doing was sticking them. I fished them way back then when I was a kid and clearly remember Phil saying "wait until this longline gear catches on - you won't be able to find a fish for miles". That quickly happened and we switched to longlining for tilefish in the canyons. Those were sadly overfished as well. Not only are there fewer swordfish now but the average size is smaller. We all have to admit, if we are being honest, that multiple hook gear is ALL that can damage a fishery and it's never the recreational boys that do any damage.


I did not know Phil personally, he was rapping up his career when I was just starting. They fished Yankee gear on Georges and did very well. If there is a PLL hall of fame, he certainly is a member.


Once you get off the docks and into the political area, money and often NOT the facts are what runs the show. Look at all of this country's political doings - money is the ultimate mover.


I hear about the unlimited funding of lobbyist for the commercial sector all the time, please provide some accurate figures for us and where the money went. I am asking anyone on this forum to please show us who is being paid off for their support. BWFA is the only driving force behind the PLL industry and I assure you that their membership is paltry in comparision to just one Recreational Group such as TBF, RFA, CCA, IGFA and a host of others. What really amazes me is that with all that big dollar support, the recreational interests still have to battle every step of the way. I assure you that just the contributions of the Tyson Family alone to the recreational sector outweigh all the financial support the PLL industry receives. Now if we are speaking about unfinanced support, you would have to look at every restuarant, seafood retail and supermarket in the United States, those are the 300 million I speak about.


When you speak of the rest of us only seeing the crew, while you see 300 million Americans, think about those people and follow the money. Unfortunately commecial lobby dollars far outweigh recreational money thus the commercials will NEVER be out of the picture.

Please show me the money???????


If you really want to see the 300 million Americans clearly see them as the people that ADD to our economy when they buy boats, fuel, fishing gear, bait, and all of the assorted stuff that goes with sport fishing. A commercially caught fish is sold for however much a pound and that's pretty close to the end of the dollar chain unless you add in the wholesale to retail transfer.


Sorry not even close. The commercial fishing chain goes way beyond the boat and the Broker. That small comment about wholesale to retail is the heart of the commercial industry and the reason that the recreational sector can not win. Commercial fishing generates billions of dollars into the US economy in the way of transportation, restuarants, retails and supermarkets. Every dollar of seafood that our Domestic fleet provides is one dollar added to our Gross National Product, unlike recreational gear that is imported from other Nations. It is an American product, manufactured right here in the good old USA on boats built here. We now have companies that produce mono, hooks, lightsticks and even the bait can come from the US. With the exception of fuel, the US can provide every product needed to fish commercially.

Don't lose sight that many people rely on fishing to survive, while for most others it is no different than playing a video game, it is a recreation that is not necessary for survival. I know, the tackle shops. As I have heard my friend the Beast say many times in regard to PLL'ers, don't bitch if it's the profession you choose.


Any fish recreationally caught results in far more dollars spent and money into the coffers in the way of taxes, licenses, and assorted purchases. Look at the monies that go into boat purchases, the jobs created in building those boats, and the taxes paid.


I would like you to travel to Bayou La Batre, Alabama and tell those good folks that the shipyards must close because the recreational fisherman of South Florida do not see the importance of commercial fishing.


No matter how you try and skew it if there are no fish out there for the recreational boys to catch the economy gets hit harder when they all quit fishing in favor of buying fish at their local market. Of course we all enjoy days on the water but let the catching get down to zero and watch how quickly fewer people are out there.

Your saying less recreational pressure is bad? Who gets hit harder? A few tackle shops? BTW, many of those tackle shops are new arrival, should we really worry about Johnny Morris?


Every individuals "right" to a resource is a great idea but lets keep the playing field level. How can a handful of boats have a quota that they can fill while the recreational boats out number them yet cannot fill their swordfish quota?


Out number them 1000 to 1 by the way! There is nobody standing in the way of recs. catching all they want, NMFS is encouraging it. If the US PLL fleet were catching it's quota we would not be having this discussion.


POST WAS TOO LONG, SEE NEXT POST

[Broadbill-Pro]

I was a big part of the recreational fishery in the early 70's when every trip resulted in multiple large fish. As soon as the longliners hit the scene our catch rate tumbled until we just gave it up in favor of fishing for something we could actually catch.

Not true, several recreational fisherman on this site have confirmed that they were catching fine during the 80's and 90' when they made the attempt. Think hard, why were the PLL here if there were no fish?


It took kicking the longliners out, and many years, before we again developed a viable recreational fishery. Do we really want to kill it again considering all of the money that it brings into our economy?


No, I would never want to see a fishery suffer. To assume that it may happen on the word of the enemy is not a very wise way to form a conclusion. We have a branch of the Government to oversee the process. If you do not have faith in them to do the right thing, I suggest you aim your arrows closer to the core of the problem.

BTW, those many years to rectify 30 years of PLL, well it was only one or two years to bring the fishery to todays current levels or are you the only one catching more today than you did 5 years ago? or was the fishery well on it's way to recovery before the closure?


Every tackle shop in South Florida cannot rig deep water electric reels fast enough as everyone wants into the daytime swordfish catch. Couple the taking of larger fish during the day, and the amount of jugs we see out there at night, and we are already on our way to a decline in the stocks which would be a huge error in managment.

The sudden electric reel craze is testament that the recreational sectors mindset is not so far from the commercials. Another example of people living in a glass house that are throwing stones.


In our boats we follow the fish. In Washington, and in politics, just follow the money if you can't understand what's going on. Slick lobbyists explain issues about the seas to people from the corn farming states and since they hear nothing in rebuttal they make ill advised decisions. ALL of the facts are never made available by any one side and if there is anything we can do to maintain what we have off the southeast coast it has to be done sooner rather than later.

Very true statement. That is why I am on this forum. I provide the other side that many on here do not want you to know. I sat in a wheelhouse for 25 years reading the BS from the experts, Mike Leach telling us about seabirds dying behind Patagonian Toothfish vessels in the Soutern Indian Ocean, WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Peter Wright giving us his expertise on ocean conservation, while at the same time boasting he has caught more granders than anyone. Look at the pictures of your dead fish Peter!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just last night that bone head Guy Harvey was on TV, bashing commercial fishing while he has white marlin struggling for their lives behind the boat. A thousand white marlin are killed in Mid-Atlantic tournaments every summer, how could a man of Harveys experience miss that. Last week he and Dr. Eric Prince killed a blue marlin, but it was in the name of research. Anyone see the program? Eric Prince looked like he wanted to puke when Harvey was saying "oh well, it happens". Here's a big "FCK OFF" to anyone who preaches, while doing the Preachers Wife behind the church.



I was forced out of commercial fishing twice because myself, and fellow
commercials, raped the resources.

If you were a producer, there was no need to quit. Did you quit due to guilt?


Now as a recreational fisherman it angers me that anyone can argue how resources need to be shared. Share them on a fair basis - numbers of recreational fisherman and the monies they spend in pursuit of the resource vs. the numbers of commercials and what their fishery injects into the economy. Make it a numbers thing and not a lobby dollar issue and maybe we won't see disastrous results with the swordfish much like they are experiencing with the Bluefins that I agree have been totally mismanaged.

I assume you know that the General Catagory Bluefin Fishery is comprised of nearly all recreational fisherman who decided to get in on the bonanza? Every Electrician and Plumber in the NE became a commercial fisherman when they saw money could be made. Most of this bunch on the FEC is no different. .

Rogue nations, and their boats, are something that is a whole different issue and cannot be controlled but much can be done at home to protect our resources and make them available to everyone on an equal basis.


Wrong!!!!!!!! HMS HMS HMS other Nations are the issue.


Of course this is just one man's opinion and I'm open to comments and welcome them. I've been on both sides of the issues and want to see my grandkids have something to fish for when they get older and not blame the previous generation for their "no fish" plight.[/quote]

Harry,

Thanks for the opinion, it gives me a chance to express mine. The areas being considered for reopening are very limited and should not have much impact on the big picture. If we are wrong then the battle lines will be redrawn. Considering the present health of the stock and new PLL bycatch regulations, neither you nor I can deny them a chance to prove that the gear is more conservation friendly.

Now that I have wasted the entire morning with my rant.............

[quack quack]

So Harry you fished on the Harry Glen?I have pics of swords they got when my dad fished that boat.The drum would break and they would haul in gear by hand!You must have known my dad Chuck Willer.Are you Capt seagull?

[tunaman81]

Originally Posted by CAPTINMITCH

No, it wasn't.

Like it or not Mitch, there were several factors that contributed to the rebound of swordfish stocks in the North Atlantic:

1. The entire quota of North Atlantic swordfish was lowered in the years before the closure.

2. There was very high recruitment in the years prior to the closures.

3. And finally we come to the closures (including areas in the Caribbean), which did help.

Remember, the swordfish fishery was starting to improve in the late 90's, a few years before the closures went into effect.

Originally Posted by CAPTINMITCH

Because there has never been a documented case of a saltwater species collapse due to recreational fishing. Ever. It has always been the commercial guys in their never-ending search for 'the shortest route to success'.

Recreational fishermen as well as recreational spearfishermen has a lot to do with the collapse of the goliath grouper stocks in Florida waters.

Also, take a look at the sad state of a lot of the bottom fisheries for snapper and grouper off the east coast of Florida. Recreational fishing has a lot to do with that. It is impossible for it not to. You have millions of anglers pounding every inch of structure on the bottom. One of the reasons the average size of grouper and snapper has dropped is due to whats called "fishing down the food chain." In essence, you remove all the big individuals selectively. The Gulf is another story.

Honestly, I am as die hard a recreational fisherman as anyone. But you need to accept responsibility for your actions. The numbers of recreational fishermen in this state make it nearly impossible to not have a noticable effect. Some species will not be affected much by recreational fishermen, however, others can be hit very hard. The attitude that recreational fishermen will never have an effect on any species is a very dangerous one to have.

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by tunaman81

Recreational fishermen as well as recreational spearfishermen has a lot to do with the collapse of the goliath grouper stocks in Florida waters.

Also, take a look at the sad state of a lot of the bottom fisheries for snapper and grouper off the east coast of Florida. Recreational fishing has a lot to do with that. It is impossible for it not to. You have millions of anglers pounding every inch of structure on the bottom. One of the reasons the average size of grouper and snapper has dropped is due to whats called "fishing down the food chain." In essence, you remove all the big individuals selectively. The Gulf is another story.

Honestly, I am as die hard a recreational fisherman as anyone. But you need to accept responsibility for your actions. The numbers of recreational fishermen in this state make it nearly impossible to not have a noticable effect. Some species will not be affected much by recreational fishermen, however, others can be hit very hard. The attitude that recreational fishermen will never have an effect on any species is a very dangerous one to have.

I believe you are worng on the Jewfish issue. Granted, recreational fishing and spearfishing had some impact on this curious, easily caught, species, but the commercial harvest of them was detrimental and subsequently banned long before the "protected species" label was applied. That species is slow growing to maturity and has a hard time surviving commercial pressure.

As far as the Snapper, Grouper, Tilefish etc. This again has some pressure related to recreational fishing but nothing in comparison to the bottom longline and older fish trap methods. Convince me that the few recreational deep drop fisherman are the ones who warranted this 1 fish trip limit on G. Tiles and Snowy's.

If you want to talk about reef and inshore fish that have been plundered to critical levels by the commercial type fishing, I can name about 8 or 9 species right off the cuff.

I doubt anyone in S. Florida has ever thought that the recreational fisherman has 0 impact on the fishery, but in comparison to the gluttonous attitude of our commercial sector, it isn't even close!

[tunaman81]

Originally Posted by The BEAST

As far as the Snapper, Grouper, Tilefish etc. This again has some pressure related to recreational fishing but nothing in comparison to the bottom longline and older fish trap methods. Convince me that the few recreational deep drop fisherman are the ones who warranted this 1 fish trip limit on G. Tiles and Snowy's.

Recs may not be the ones who warranted that lowered bag limits on tiles. However, I could not see any reason for anyone to keep more that one golden tile/snowy per person per trip. Convince me why you need more than that.

Originally Posted by The BEAST

If you want to talk about reef and inshore fish that have been plundered to critical levels by the commercial type fishing, I can name about 8 or 9 species right off the cuff.

I doubt anyone in S. Florida has ever thought that the recreational fisherman has 0 impact on the fishery, but in comparison to the gluttonous attitude of our commercial sector, it isn't even close!

I respectfully disagree. I'd be willing to be that the recreational pressure on snapper/grouper in the Keys, Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties is very close to that of the commercial catch in the same areas. There are just so many people out there hammering the reefs day in and day out, especially with such a short run on South Florida and the Keys.

The Gulf, however, is a different story altogether.

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by tunaman81

Recs may not be the ones who warranted that lowered bag limits on tiles. However, I could not see any reason for anyone to keep more that one golden tile/snowy per person per trip. Convince me why you need more than that.

Not a problem. Maybe I had company coming over for dinner! Maybe I like to eat tilefish more often than I like to fish for them! Perfect example: You can buy as much tilefish meat as you want with absolutely NO limit; but if you pay 10X that $ amount to gas up and gear up your own boat, you can only keep one. The commercials have the right to catch and sell you all that you may want even if you simply toss it in the garbage everyday, but YOU can only harvest one for yourself. In all honesty... if you aren't restricted in how much you can purchase why should you be restricted in how much you can personally catch? The perfect $$$$ commercial $$$$ world!

The average recreational fisherman puts less than 100 hours per year on his boat and you think that 1 per trip is an ample limit? Alrighty then!

Originally Posted by tunaman81

I respectfully disagree. I'd be willing to be that the recreational pressure on snapper/grouper in the Keys, Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties is very close to that of the commercial catch in the same areas. There are just so many people out there hammering the reefs day in and day out, especially with such a short run on South Florida and the Keys.

The Gulf, however, is a different story altogether.

We aren't talking about a bet here! Where were you when the Redfish, Snook, Mullet, KINGFISH (to name a few) fell away to dismal numbers? I don't believe you were around during the old fish trap days when a 15" grouper was a prize. You better hold off on your bets until you do more research on the number of com hook & liners as well as all the others with an RS permit to sell, before making that wager about rec fisherman.

In all seriousness, name 1 species of saltwater fish that has been over exploited solely by the recreational fisherman.

[tunaman81]

Originally Posted by The BEAST

We aren't talking about a bet here! Where were you when the Redfish, Snook, Mullet, KINGFISH (to name a few) fell away to dismal numbers? I don't believe you were around during the old fish trap days when a 15" grouper was a prize. You better hold off on your bets until you do more research on the number of com hook & liners as well as all the others with an RS permit to sell, before making that wager about rec fisherman.

In all seriousness, name 1 species of saltwater fish that has been over exploited solely by the recreational fisherman.

Yes, inshore netters (gill netters, roller netters) did do a lot of damage in the past. As did fish trappers. Commercial fishermen have the potential to do a lot of damage. Thankfully, Florida made the appropriate bans. However, I am referring to the present. At the present time, recreational pressure on snappers and grouper is significant in Southeast Florida (to reiterate, the Gulf is an entirely different matter).

While it would be possible to get the numbers of commercial fishermen fishing for grouper and snapper, you would not be able to get a number of recs fishing for snapper/grouper or pounds caught because they are not reported.

Post release mortality aside, there are very few fish that are overexploited just by recs for a simple reason...fish that are heavily exploited by recs are exploited because they are tasty...and thus there is likely commercial exploitation as well. However, that is not the point I am trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that recs can have a large impact on stocks, especially on species that tend to haunt the same areas. Just a thought to have in mind when you are out fishing and harvesting. Snapper/grouper are two families of fish that are heavily exploited by recs.

At present time, with US longline fleets getting smaller, a majority of the mortality of white marlin and sailfish in US Atlantic waters is due to recreational fisherman. Not only due to kill tournaments, but also due to improper handling (removing the fish from the water for pics, grabbing the gills), as well as the use of J hooks, etc.

[miamiangler1]

[quote=tunaman81;77171]Recs may not be the ones who warranted that lowered bag limits on tiles. However, I could not see any reason for anyone to keep more that one golden tile/snowy per person per trip.

hey Tunaman81.. before the rec limit was 5 tiles in a grouper baglimit... now it`s 1 per person per day ... I can go out of my area and be the only one dropping and look up the coast in both directions and see no on else doing it ... as for limits it would no be bad if it was 3 per day ...there are time s I`ll get my limit by catching one two lb tile ... really not much for a big dinner ... or if I do get two on the line legally have to let one go ... which you know is dead ... which is a big waste ... also how about the charter captians that want to take out their clients.deep dropping ...the captian says .. well you can only catch one fish ,then that`s it .. not great for buisness.... as the story goes it was the commercials off South Carolina that where crying so hard the the Sfma screwed the rec`s with their unrealistic limits with out dated science saying that the stock is over fished which is actually not true ...

[Broadbill-Pro]

Willie,

Unfortunately, the Tile reg is not by area. In SE Florida it would difficult to exploit that fishery due to the amount of fish our area seems to hold. North of Jupiter is another story, in that area 5 guys with a 5 fish per man limit can catch 25 fish without much trouble and as you go further North all the way to Georges Banks it becomes less difficult.

I agree that 1 fish is difficult to accept and should not apply in our area. Goldies are on my short list of favorite fish to catch and eat. The current regs have kept me from running North to get them. I can not see burning $600 worth of fuel for a few fish.

It has not stopped me from fishing here for them because to be honest, Rosefish may taste even better than Tile, they are abundant and I can not find a bag limit. I went yesterday by myself and in a couple hours was able to catch enough to keep me cleaning the spiny critters all night. I did manage 1 Golden about 15 pounds.

Justin is correct about recreational impact on reef fish off the SE Coast. Head boats return with a few bait size snappers per man, per 4 hour trip off Hillsboro. Those fish are pounded by day and night 365 days a year. A flag yellowtail is the equivalent of catching a +500 sword, as a matter of fact the sword may be less difficult.

Jim is tucked away in South Dade, his area has way less impact from Recs. When I hear that recreational fisherman have never harmed a fishery, my immediate thoughts go to a Florida of the past and present.

Those photos of 50 rec caught snook hanging on the hooks was a time when the Seminoles were still poor. The population of Florida was paltry in comparision to today. In the real world the snook that migrate to the Inlets of Florida in the summer would be a memory if the recreational anglers were left unregulated.

When we speak of recreational impact, some want to speak of the past, some the present, but I think we need to look at the future. With the quantity of recreational anglers at present time and the availablility of the most advanced fishing tackle ever developed, it is not difficut to see that left unregulated every fishery has the potential to reach the endangered status by recreational impact alone.

Many preach about not returning to the mistakes of the past, while not looking in their own backyards to the mistakes that took place there.

[CaptKen]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Justin is correct about recreational impact on reef fish off the SE Coast. Head boats return with a few bait size snappers per man, per 4 hour trip off Hillsboro. Those fish are pounded by day and night 365 days a year. A flag yellowtail is the equivalent of catching a +500 sword, as a matter of fact the sword may be less difficult.


Many preach about not returning to the mistakes of the past, while not looking in their own backyards to the mistakes that took place there.

I disagree with Justin !
It began with guys like my father and my fathers uncle long before Justins time, pounding thousands upon thousands of lbs of snappers off the SE coast night after night. My Uncle would yell at my dad because he liked to kill the JewFish, Son we only get 6 CENTS! a LB for them, leave them alone, We get 18 cents for yellowtail ! We need the room in the hold.
Then when it was done around here, they moved West End to whipe them out ! Then whipe out the kingfish over here in between.
Now throw in sewer pipes from miami north up the coast, population,pollution, they never will recover like the 50s-60s, As with the swordfish, if everyone pulled every swordfish hook out of the water for 10 years. In 2016 you still wouldn't be able to go out and catch 2 swordfish over 250 lbs like you could do in the early 70S before the Longliners whiped them out too.

[CaptKen]

Originally Posted by tunaman81

Recs may not be the ones who warranted that lowered bag limits on tiles. However, I could not see any reason for anyone to keep more that one golden tile/snowy per person per trip. Convince me why you need more than that.

If you had a job, worked to buy a vessel ,maintained a vessel, paid all the liscenses,tag,Fl reg,fishing liscenses etc, you should be at least entitled to 5 snowies and 5 goldens at the bare minunim. no matter what you were going to do with um.
Why does a rec boat need to kill 3 swords on a trip ? people do
I know I would rather have 5- 25lb snowies vaccumend packed than a sword any day.



I respectfully disagree. I'd be willing to be that the recreational pressure on snapper/grouper in the Keys, Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties is very close to that of the commercial catch in the same areas. There are just so many people out there hammering the reefs day in and day out, especially with such a short run on South Florida and the Keys.

The Gulf, however, is a different story altogether.

If you had a job, worked to buy a vessel ,maintained a vessel, paid all the liscenses,tag,Fl reg,fishing liscenses etc, you should be at least entitled to 5 snowies and 5 goldens at the bare minunim. no matter what you were going to do with um.
Why does a rec boat need to kill 3 swords on a trip ? people do
I know I would rather have 5- 25lb snowies vaccumend packed than a sword any day.





The whole answer to that is CLEAN gulfstream water constantly flushing through, The commericals never could whipe them off the map in the keys like in Dade , broward , palmbeach. The Keys dont have SHIT pipes extending out to an eddie to carry it north and kill everything in its path.
Sure there are still commerical yellowtailers that go out every day in the keys, but they arnt getting rich, they are just scracthing out a living for a lot of hard work, They will never retire to a nice house on the intercoastal in Ft.Laud or Lighthouse Point.

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by CaptKen

I disagree with Justin !
It began with guys like my father and my fathers uncle long before Justins time, pounding thousands upon thousands of lbs of snappers off the SE coast night after night. My Uncle would yell at my dad because he liked to kill the JewFish, Son we only get 6 CENTS! a LB for them, leave them alone, We get 18 cents for yellowtail ! We need the room in the hold.
Then when it was done around here, they moved West End to whipe them out ! Then whipe out the kingfish over here in between.
Now throw in sewer pipes from miami north up the coast, population,pollution, they never will recover like the 50s-60s, As with the swordfish, if everyone pulled every swordfish hook out of the water for 10 years. In 2016 you still wouldn't be able to go out and catch 2 swordfish over 250 lbs like you could do in the early 70S before the Longliners whiped them out too.

Ken,

In ten years, 2016? It's Super Bowl Sunday so I'll just assume the brew is flowing early

Since your Dad and Uncle left the area, bottom fish surely have had time to mature. Yet, they don't in the areas from Palm Beach to Miami. Certainly recreational impact is to blame, there's no pinning that on anyone else. If it were a pollution only issue the fish would not be there at all. The reefs are full or juvenile fish, just nothing much over the size limit.

The assumption that recs can not exhaust a resource based on history is not a realistic view. Left unregulated coastal species have little chance to survive the army of anglers that enjoy our coast. If I can release 60 snook in Jupiter Inlet in one morning, how many do you think would survive the season if left to unregulated recreational fisherman?

Like I have said in the past, over-indulgence is not a commercial problem. It is a problem with mankind.

[CaptKen]

.lol 2018? you got me