NMFS Announces decision to issue EFP's for the closed zone.

[CaptKen]

Originally Posted by ProfessorO

(Swordfish is plural in my argument above; there may be some fish,
presumable some males, that do not engage in much migration
and might not spend as much time chasing bait.)

cheers, arthur

I have a few questions for the major minds:

If what you said is true above, How would explain a 300 lb pumpkin ?

Now Im not sure, I can't find the info anywhere, but so I have been told that US quota was set during the 70's while there was 300+ LL boats in the US fleet, LLing was somewhat new, and UN reasonable amount of Metric Tons back then... Now today with lets say 150 LLboats {who really knows, everyone has a differnt answer to that question}but to grab a number, with those that are active more interested in Tuna, Wouldn't it be realistic to say that there is no way in hell to ever reach the US quota ?
Even if they issued 100 new LL and 100 Hand gear in the morning ?

[RiskTaker]

So what is wrong with mandating, oops scratch that, begging ICCAT to reduce the overall North Atlantic quota? I guess I was just being awnry to suggest a mandate, let alone to suggest a swordfish bonus/credit for Flagship conservation management by the US of A, or others that meet that criteria.

I guess when you simply play with fractions or pie slices it seems so SIMPLE to manage responsibly.

Good joke ProfessorO, on the other thread. "mandate" a pie dream.

And an Excellent post on this one. Cheers.

(Your Scientific explanation or rationale almost seems like common Sense. I think I need to hang out at more swordfishing with Science, parties.)

Just don't ban electric reels that use two hooks or less in the Straits of Florida.

[ameristrat]

hahaha! Rock on RT! Please don't ban em'!

[Broadbill-Pro]

Jim,

The last year I fished the North Atlantic was our most productive, anyone who knows me from those days will confirm that I left the Atlantic because NMFS imposed a 32,000# trip limit. Much less than our potential.

Beast wrote : How effective is a year long EFP study on circle hooks as to bycatch, especially if you are deliberately trying to avoid interaction with those species? If you catch and kill a turtle in a 500 hook set, is that a 1 in 500 chance or 100%

Swordfish do not make a practice of mingling with marlin, by targeting swordfish "avoiding interaction" comes without effort. That's not to say that some bycatch will not be caught, just not in the amount that recreational math indicates.

First of all turtles seldom die with the current gear rule, the leader must be longer then the buoy drop, allowing a hooked turtle to surface. All PLL vessels have crew that have participated in turtle releasing seminars. I guess the answer would be 100% if a turtle is hooked and the release survival rate would be very close to the same.

If one released sailfish dies during a 5 release day is that 1 in 5 or 100%?

[ProfessorO]

Originally Posted by ameristrat

true - that's a very good and valid point... but that doesn't mean we have to like it

That's OK, I don't like parts of my argument at times either. cheers, arthur

[ProfessorO]

Originally Posted by CaptKen

I have a few questions for the major minds:

If what you said is true above, How would explain a 300 lb pumpkin ?

Now Im not sure, I can't find the info anywhere, but so I have been told that US quota was set during the 70's while there was 300+ LL boats in the US fleet, LLing was somewhat new, and UN reasonable amount of Metric Tons back then... Now today with lets say 150 LLboats {who really knows, everyone has a differnt answer to that question}but to grab a number, with those that are active more interested in Tuna, Wouldn't it be realistic to say that there is no way in hell to ever reach the US quota ?
Even if they issued 100 new LL and 100 Hand gear in the morning ?

Capt Ken, good to hear from you. My comment that you quote is the
exception to my claim that most fish are highly migratory. A 300 lb
pumpkin is a large female breeder whose diet is rich in presumably red
shrimp; my guess is that she spent more of her time following the shrimp
instead of the squid and tinkers.

I'll let someone else answer your quota question since you do make a
valid point and I don't have the numbers in front of me.

I'm going to start another thread this week on what is the standing crop
of swordfish biomass in the N. Atlantic and why are the courts fixated
on the 1978 estimate (So folks do your homework and be ready for this
one) instead of an estimate from the 1960s??? cheers, arthur

[ProfessorO]

Originally Posted by RiskTaker

So what is wrong with mandating, oops scratch that, begging ICCAT to reduce the overall North Atlantic quota? I guess I was just being awnry to suggest a mandate, let alone to suggest a swordfish bonus/credit for Flagship conservation management by the US of A, or others that meet that criteria.

I guess when you simply play with fractions or pie slices it seems so SIMPLE to manage responsibly.

Good joke ProfessorO, on the other thread. "mandate" a pie dream.

And an Excellent post on this one. Cheers.

(Your Scientific explanation or rationale almost seems like common Sense. I think I need to hang out at more swordfishing with Science, parties.)

Just don't ban electric reels that use two hooks or less in the Straits of Florida.

There are too many countries lined up for a piece of the quota; I doubt that
it will be reduced but the total quota may be increased.

I don't have a problem with electric reels; I'm not going to fish them since
they are not allowed in most of the tournaments and one should be an
expert in manual deep dropping to be most competitive.

I hope to see you at our next meeting. cheers, arthur

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Jim,

If one released sailfish dies during a 5 release day is that 1 in 5 or 100%?

NO... that would a 20% mortality rate! And only 20% if you can prove it actually died. I guess the TBF tagging system is a joke by your standards. I guess those SAT tagged Swordfish all perished too. The survival rate has got to be much higher than you portray it. One thing for sure... I can count the number of fish that I have had to discard dead, on one hand. How many mud darts have you had? Comparing survival rates of recreational fish to PLL, in overall numbers, is absolutely absurd!

It's funny how you keep stating about recreation release mortality yet when you refer to a release from a PLL you act as if it is a 100% survival rate on release. All the "release" training in the world doesn't help the ones that come up dead.

Using the "conservative" numbers below... your 20% mortality (1 in 5) would add 2 more mud darts to the numbers of Marlin mortality which is already estimated. The estimated numbers show almost 60% coming to the boat dead already. Add the other 2 released alive but will die, by your estimation, and now you have 67% death rate. Instead of 2 out of 10 dying by your recreational standard the PLL has 7 out of 10 dead.

Remember also to add 195 more 'released alive' mortality to the Sword numbers below and you have now discarded 555 DEAD unusable Swordfish. Stretch that over just the US PLL fleet and you have thousands of fish which are of no worth to anyone, including the 300 million Americans you see yourself feeding.

I doubt that even you can embellish release tournament "death" numbers (1 of 5) to equal the PLL's useless kill rate (7 of 10).


The government "conservatively" estimates the catch numbers to be:

- swordfish - 1,083 landed, 973 released alive, 360 discarded dead;

- white marlin - 9 released alive and 13 dead;

- blue marlin - 10 released alive, 14 dead;

- large coastal sharks - 113 landed, 124 released alive, 50 discarded dead;

- pelagic sharks - 21 landed, 81 released alive, 11 discarded dead;

- bluefin tuna - 0 landed;

- leatherback sea turtles - 2 interactions; and

- loggerhead sea turtles - 6 interactions.

[rollin]

ha. haha. mmmmmhahaha.....HAhhhaahhaaa.....HAHAA!.........HA HAHAHAHHAAAHAHAHHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry

i'm tryin to get m' breath........

are you guys STILL not gettin' it?

google this guys - join the law suit - if you dont fight this with fire you'll see the return of the bad ol' days - and SOON.

R

[Broadbill-Pro]

Jim,

I'm dizzy from your figures, but I get the point. The 1 in 5 was not intended to be an accurate figure (it may be more?).

Mud dart has become a fancy phrase to a once sellable and very edible fish. PLL did not invent throwing dead fish overboard, it was imposed on them. I never agreed with the size limit as I personally would not operate in an area where they are abundant, unfortunatley there are Captains who will, thus the regulation.

Have you ever held a 18/0 circle hook? I doubt it could even fit into some of the "larger mouths" on this forum. There are good regulations set at the moment to reduce bycatch to the lowest extent practicle. In accordance with the MSA the US PLL fleet is in compliance with the law. HMS needs to conduct the study to achieve the base line data, if the numbers reflect that bycatch in the proposed EA areas in too great, you will not hear me bitch for a moment. The result will not add or decrease from my income, if they feel the time is not right or never will be then I will accept it. The Captains involved are very capable and if they can not avoid excessive bycatch then more than likely no PLL'er could.

That will not keep me from setting the record straight on this forum.

BTW the way, where do you write your article? Your getting away with murder and I doubt anyone even questions your expertise.

[The BEAST]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

BTW the way, where do you write your article? Your getting away with murder and I doubt anyone even questions your expertise.

EASY BIG BOY! Don't sweat it, Vinnie. I write a fishing report not an editorial column. I try to keep that portion very basic relaying the facts at hand with very little biased opinion.

Here is the excerpt of that portion of the column... make your own decision.

A disappointing news flash for you all. In October we, the recreational fishing sector, won the decision to disallow the request for 13 experimental longliners in the Florida waters. This week we received a crushing blow and an ‘in your face’ reversal. Right after the New Year rang in, NMFS announced that they were going to allow 2 longline boats to begin fishing in Florida waters on an experimental permit. 1 year = 289 sets of 500 hooks per set!. Do the math, Folks! This is our government agency at its finest. The Blue Water Fishing Alliance now has their foot in the door for a renewed longline effort. Next year they will petition for a reopening of the Florida closure, just as sure as the sun will set tomorrow. If you care at all about your Florida fishing, now is the time to get active and vocal on this. It doesn’t just pertain to Swordfish, my friends. Their by-catch of Dolphin, Tuna, Wahoo, Sharks, Sailfish, and both Blue and White Marlins, will definitely affect you. If you don’t want fishing history to repeat itself, let your politicians know what you think of these back handed politics by NMFS. Get involved… your future in fishing and more importantly the future of our next generation of fishermen is at stake.

[catching]

The EFP’s need to happen for the good or the bad, hopefully we will be right with the by-catch rate of marlin, turtles, and other non-targeted pelagic species, or we will be wrong. The only way to know is to let the EFP’s happen. Do not fight it and hope we are right. We beat out the 12 PLLers fishing but now we are down to two boats that will fish an area for 12 months with no deviation to see what is going on with migration patterns.

I would be much more concerned with all the breeders being hauled in on electric reels just about every day than a thousand juvenile fish being darts!!!

Look at the big picture not just what is front of you

[Broadbill-Pro]

Jim,

VERY LITTLE BIASED? Give me a fking break!

I am not going to disect your article, but you tell me this. Where did NMFS go back on (in your face reversal) the decision?

The decision to not allow the BWFA proposal included a proposal for HMS to conduct an EA inhouse. They stated that very clearly last summer in the Federal Register and have now started the process. There is no deceit here.

To the Joe Blow Fisherman who reads your article you would want him to believe that 289 sets x 500 hooks x 365 days equals 5,274,500 dead fish.

You are doing a disservice to your readers but not explaining why the EA is important and what their objective is.

In case you do not know, the objective is to allow equal access to the species while maintaining a sustainable fishery, not to allow mistakes of the past to occur again.

BTW, good post Dan

[Bait Washer]

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Jim,

VERY LITTLE BIASED? Give me a fking break!


To the Joe Blow Fisherman who reads your article you would want him to believe that 289 sets x 500 hooks x 365 days equals 5,274,500 dead fish.

So educate us.
Just how many fish of all, and I mean all species will be taken and what does that extrapolate to over a 10 year period with average reproduction, survival and maturity rates?
This should be easy for someone with your professed knowledge of the fishery.

[CaptKen]

Originally Posted by rollin

ha. haha. mmmmmhahaha.....HAhhhaahhaaa.....HAHAA!.........HA HAHAHAHHAAAHAHAHHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry

i'm tryin to get m' breath........

are you guys STILL not gettin' it?

google this guys - join the law suit - if you dont fight this with fire you'll see the return of the bad ol' days - and SOON.

R

Could you provide a link or any info, I googled it and I cant find what your talkin about

[Broadbill-Pro]

Originally Posted by Bait Washer

So educate us.
Just how many fish of all, and I mean all species will be taken and what does that extrapolate to over a 10 year period with average reproduction, survival and maturity rates?
This should be easy for someone with your professed knowledge of the fishery.

If you doubt my knowledge of the fishery I would be happy to listen to someone who has more experience. The people who have more information are the record keepers at HMS, but some on this forum would like you to believe they are all crooked and incompetent. Who else should we listen to? Some old salt who tangled with LL 25 years ago and has been carrying a sour puss since?

It is not realistic to produce the number you are looking for, let's examine one 300 pound recreationally killed fish and use your formula, well you get my point. A convincing argument could be made that one fish killed leads to millions that never will be produced.

My concern is for the species, if the research determines that the fishery can not withstand PLL impact in the closed zone then so be it. I am not the one frightened of the outcome. PLL will survive either way, the US will lose 25% of it's quota, imports will increase, the markets will bottom out causing more tuna effort and yet less sword effort and we will experience a decrease in all pelagic species that migrate from the Caribbean to our EEZ.

Keep in mind that if the US quota is reduced, the commercial sector will not be the only one feeling the pain. The reduction in quota will drop to +/- what we are catching now (2400mt), the trigger to close a season will be at 80% (1920mt). That means that with the exception of incidental bycatch, you will not be allowed to directly fish for swordfish until the meter is reset the following year.

[Tuna Devil]

Originally Posted by Bait Washer

So educate us.
Just how many fish of all, and I mean all species will be taken and what does that extrapolate to over a 10 year period with average reproduction, survival and maturity rates?
This should be easy for someone with your professed knowledge of the fishery.

Vinnie,

you are a saint for the way you handle the shit these guys give you.

It almost seems they feel if they prove YOU wrong they win.



The quotoed post is just a reference. I say this so Bait washer does not get his panties in a wad.



Don't you guys realize that in any information is power? Use the resourse wisely.

[Tuna Devil]

Originally Posted by The BEAST

Here is the excerpt of that portion of the co