NMFS Announces decision to issue EFP's for the closed zone. - Page 10

ProfessorO · 02-05-2008, 07:58 AM

The last major fish survey of the keys and offshore of Dade County
revealed many small fish. There are places that have large populations
of grunts and/or triggerfish because these fish are thrown back by anglers.
Before I caught purple fever I would have to catch 12 groupers out front
to get one that was legal size. It is not only the recreational fisherman
but spearfisherman who can cherry pick off the larger fish. There is
no doubt that the largest negative impacts on our fishery through the
years has been commercial fishing-nets, traps, long lines, trawls, .....
However, as Vinnie has pointed out numerous times, we all have blood on our own hands; though some, like Capt Ken and his Dad, have a bit more blood on their hands because they know how to catch fish and of
course, comercial guys like Vinnie probably can fill the QE2 with all
the blood they spilled. It is very hyprocritical to think that the recs are not part of the problem. I am a firm believer that parts of the reef need to be shut down a few years at a time and that these sections would alternate over time. (This strategy is working in Australia.) The recs (and this includes charter and head boats) are pounding the reef fish here. The keys have better habitat and less fishing pressure than us.

As with any nonlinear large-dimensional problem, there is not just one
factor to point a finger at. As a matter of a fact, before pollution,
global warming, and habitat destruction by clueless boaters and divers,
the reefs were starting their decline. This decline was brought on by the removal of large herbivores, such as the Caribbean Sea Otter that eats large algaes, in the late 19th century and early part of the 20th century. Some species of algae are beneficial for coral and some species compete with coral for optimal locations and the removal of large sea creatures that eat algae started the decline of our reefs. This decline has been compounded by removal of fish that help to clean the reef, pollution, silting, destruction by man (ships, subs) and by nature (hurricanes), and changing environmental conditions (temperature, salinity, UV radiaition, ...).

Back to my main point, you are living in a fantasy world if you think that recs, fisherman and divers, are not a major part of the problem. cheers, arthur

dring · 02-05-2008, 12:42 PM

lets not even bring up right whales.

tunaman81 · 02-05-2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The BEAST

Tunaman81,

Where do all those little fishies come from... big fish, no? Do I need a course in marine biology or sex education to realize this new phenomena of propagation?

You stated "There are lots of fish, just very small." then you contradicted yourself by telling Johnny that "there are definately some decent bottom fish to catch, but it is not anything like it should be." Well which is it

No, I did not contradict myself. There are still some nice sized fish out there, but not nearly as many large fish as there should be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The BEAST

Ban waterfront lawn fertilization. Are you friggin' sh!tting me? You can't be serious? How petty is that? Headline news: "Scott's Turf Builder Kicks off Algae Bloom"... Not a lot of thought went into that statement. If you want to cite phosphate runoff, you need to look toward agriculture, citrus, produce farmers, tree farms, plant nurseries, and BIG SUGAR.

Actually, a lot of thought went into the statement. I am definately not kidding either. While big sugar, citrus, agriculture, farmers, nursuries etc are major players in the problem in certain areas, fertilizer runoff from the millions upon millions of houses definately contributes to the problem significantly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The BEAST

Did anyone else see the news last night where 2 endangered Right whales were critically entangled in fishing line. One was towing a large poly ball. Try to pin this one on the recreational angler! I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that it isn't 50# Sailfish leader.

Obviously that was not a sailfish leader. And you appear to be taking everything I said the wrong way. I am just as much a recreational fisherman as anyone else on any of these forums. It is my life and it has been that way for as long as I have been around. I just take issue with the outdated statements that recreational anglers will never have much of an effect. It is a dangerous way to think because it absolves people of responsibility, and they are less likely to act in a a manner consistent with conservation.

Sorry about the derail.

quack quack · 02-05-2008, 01:10 PM

True if rec fishing could never have an inpact on a fish stock why have any rec limits.

Broadbill-Pro · 02-05-2008, 02:40 PM

Justin the derail is justified!

If we all could be as innocent as some on here believe they are, it would be a perfect world.

The attitude that if you kill a hundred fish and I kill one, mine does not matter is idiotic. It may be only one fish, but one times a thousand anglers may be the real problem.

There is nothing that can be said to disprove your theory, we can go on any wreck or reef off Broward and bend a rod a hundred times per day. The result will be less than 5 barely legal size fish. Pollution is not stunting their growth, hooks are.

The BEAST · 02-05-2008, 07:41 PM

VInnie et all,

I never said that the rec fisherman is totally blameless! Once again, you have twisted words to meet your needs. My exact quote was... " In all seriousness, name 1 species of saltwater fish that has been over exploited solely by the recreational fisherman." This is not to say that we (recs) have not hindered the rebuilding of slow growing fishes. Suffice it to say that nearly all of the stock rebuilding has had to be done due to exploitation by commercial interests. Ironically one of the last species crushed by the commercials is the Amberjack. We had our limit stripped to 1 p/person while on any given day you can see commercial boats pounding them on the humps. We (recs) have taken our sour grapes (paltry bag limits) over and over again. Your turn! Maybe it's time for your 300 million to eat farm raised Tilapia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broadbill=Pro

The attitude that if you kill a hundred fish and I kill one, mine does not matter is idiotic.

Your comparison is idiotic, in and of itself. Comparing me to you is like comparing a WWII rifleman to the crew of the Enola Gay.

Arguing on this forum is worse than trying to play cards with my grandsons.

Broadbill-Pro · 02-05-2008, 10:26 PM

Jim,

You fail to see the benefit of commercial fishing to the non-fishing community. I see a resource divided by all Americans and you see it divided by user groups.

The comparison obviously was in reference to commercial vs recreational.

The BEAST · 02-06-2008, 11:03 AM

I've seen the "benefit" of commercial fishing or should I say commercial benefitting from fishing. Over the last 3 decades I've witnessed plenty. I've seen repeated exploitation... Grouper, Snapper, Redfish, Snook, Jewfish, Mullet, Kingfish, to name a few of the most obvious. When the stocks are at an unprofitable bottom, they move on to the next species and create a new market for them, as evidenced Amberjack, the most recent target.

Here are a couple of quotes I've heard from ol' Salts, that stick firmly in my mind. They reflect the true mentality of fish for sale fishing... "If it fetches 35 cents a pound, kill it!" ... "If we don't catch 'em, someone else will!"...

The only thing you saw was 300 million American wallets!!!! If they re-open the FEC you will probably return to your humanitarian role once again... feeding the masses. You're a saint!

Be careful, you may fall off that pedestal you've perched upon.

Tuna Devil · 02-06-2008, 12:31 PM

Jim,

I'll be the first to say it out loud..........

You are an A$$hole.

But you already knew that if you actually read the crap you write. By the way, how's that column coming?

Look out behind you!

Broadbill-Pro · 02-06-2008, 12:47 PM

Jim,

I may fall off, but you will never knock me off.

Let's clear the air here a bit, you exploit fish to earn a living. Even if you released everything you catch, you still put a hook in the water with the uncertainty that your catch will survive.

There are no degrees of wrong to a moral man. My morals allow me to take from the sea, yours only allow you and your kind to. If that is not a pedistal your standing on, then what is.

quack quack · 02-06-2008, 12:57 PM

Jim you are painting every commercial fisherman with the same brush.

I understand your being upset with LLers coming back in to the closed areas.But now it is every commercial fisherman that ever lived and I take great offense to that.

The BEAST · 02-06-2008, 05:10 PM

QQ,

Quit twisting my words!!!!!!!! I never said every commercial fisherman that ever lived!!!!!!!! Don't get pizzed at me if you misinterpret the meaning of my post. There is no other way to describe the division other than in general categories. Our society labels everybody! NMFS affixed these labels also! Some individuals fit the picture to a T... others don't and, unfortunately, get lumped in. There are, in fact, good and bad in both "groups". There are too many recreational fisherman in South Dade that still can't fathom that the ocean is not a bottomless pit. Generations of this thinking is hard to convince otherwise.

I was citing examples from the past... experiences with Ol' Salts fishing pound nets, gill nets, blue crabbers, and pat & tong oystermen that I knew on the Chesepeake Bay in Poquoson Virginia. Hardened Baymen!

This thread was derailed into a discussion about Snapper/Grouper and other reef fishes... the thread took a direction which didn't have a flippin' thing to do with Swordfishing in the FEC. Don't blame me!

The BEAST · 02-06-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broadbill-Pro

Jim,

I may fall off, but you will never knock me off.

Let's clear the air here a bit, you exploit fish to earn a living. Even if you released everything you catch, you still put a hook in the water with the uncertainty that your catch will survive.

There are no degrees of wrong to a moral man. My morals allow me to take from the sea, yours only allow you and your kind to. If that is not a pedistal your standing on, then what is.

Not going to try and knock you off, tough guy.

I am so done with your nit-picking comparison of released fish = death VS. the PLL. One more twist in the thinking of Enola Gay.

I have NO problem with sharing the wealth. I have a problem when we share to the point of fishery destruction. That is history and the case that drives most of the conservative guys (silent) on this forum.

The most humorous thing about all of this is that I am arguing a battle and I probably fish for Swordfish less than most on this forum. I have realized that I am carrying the torch for what, everyone else? What the hell am I wasting my time for? The 10 or so years I have left to fish comfortably? My grandsons can learn to fish inshore instead, like their Dad, where most of the targeted fish are a "not for sale" species and the State doesn't count each released fish, as dead.

The BEAST · 02-06-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna Devil

Jim,

I'll be the first to say it out loud..........

You are an A$$hole.

But you already knew that if you actually read the crap you write. By the way, how's that column coming?

Look out behind you!

TD,

You've outdone yourself. Your comments are just dripping with intelligence.

I am not phased in the least by your description of me. I've been called worse by better than you!

My column is doing fine although I asked them to run it every other week and fill in the other weeks with a flats guide. It was getting too time consuming to report every week on every aspect from Bass fishing to bluewater. Oh yeah!!!.... My editor called this afternoon to tell me this weeks read was very good and I mentioned the fact that you really wanted to read ALL my work. He informed me that the online site is being developed. So there ya go! I was thinking about you!

Is that last line a strong arm tactic or a veiled attempt at humor?

Gaitor · 02-06-2008, 06:52 PM

I tried to stay out of this, but the one constant observed ... whatever side of the fence you're on is .... It'S ALL ABOUT THE BUCKS!
I'm done now .... back into lurk status. No flames necessary.

Tuna Devil · 02-06-2008, 06:57 PM

Yeast,

Sounds like you got demoted? Every other week by choice?

No-it was a very un-veiled attempt at humor.

Just remember, I'm so bright my Dad calls me son.

The BEAST · 02-06-2008, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The BEAST

My column is doing fine although I asked them to run it every other week and fill in the other weeks with a flats guide. It was getting too time consuming to report every week on every aspect from Bass fishing to bluewater.

Try it again, TD! I emphasized some key words for ya!

Disco Lady · 02-06-2008, 07:34 PM

Ñoooooooooooooo

Tuna Devil · 02-06-2008, 07:38 PM

Dear Yeast,

I have read your really dark words in your latest post. I still think that you have been demoted. I am sorry for your loss. No, really.

Best regards, farewell, tight lines, bon appetit, catch 'em up -- I look forward to your next spewing.

Bon Soir
-Senor TD

02-05-2008, 07:58 AM	#181 (permalink)
ProfessorO Hooked Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Hollywood, FL Boat: Wellcraft 270 Coastal Best Catch: All of them Occupation: Professor of Physical Oceanography Posts: 495	The last major fish survey of the keys and offshore of Dade County revealed many small fish. There are places that have large populations of grunts and/or triggerfish because these fish are thrown back by anglers. Before I caught purple fever I would have to catch 12 groupers out front to get one that was legal size. It is not only the recreational fisherman but spearfisherman who can cherry pick off the larger fish. There is no doubt that the largest negative impacts on our fishery through the years has been commercial fishing-nets, traps, long lines, trawls, ..... However, as Vinnie has pointed out numerous times, we all have blood on our own hands; though some, like Capt Ken and his Dad, have a bit more blood on their hands because they know how to catch fish and of course, comercial guys like Vinnie probably can fill the QE2 with all the blood they spilled. It is very hyprocritical to think that the recs are not part of the problem. I am a firm believer that parts of the reef need to be shut down a few years at a time and that these sections would alternate over time. (This strategy is working in Australia.) The recs (and this includes charter and head boats) are pounding the reef fish here. The keys have better habitat and less fishing pressure than us. As with any nonlinear large-dimensional problem, there is not just one factor to point a finger at. As a matter of a fact, before pollution, global warming, and habitat destruction by clueless boaters and divers, the reefs were starting their decline. This decline was brought on by the removal of large herbivores, such as the Caribbean Sea Otter that eats large algaes, in the late 19th century and early part of the 20th century. Some species of algae are beneficial for coral and some species compete with coral for optimal locations and the removal of large sea creatures that eat algae started the decline of our reefs. This decline has been compounded by removal of fish that help to clean the reef, pollution, silting, destruction by man (ships, subs) and by nature (hurricanes), and changing environmental conditions (temperature, salinity, UV radiaition, ...). Back to my main point, you are living in a fantasy world if you think that recs, fisherman and divers, are not a major part of the problem. cheers, arthur __________________ Writing has proven to be hard work, often painful. I can honestly say that I would rather be fishing (Linda Greenlaw, The Hungry Ocean, 1999). Last edited by ProfessorO : 02-05-2008 at 02:46 PM.

02-05-2008, 01:10 PM	#184 (permalink)
quack quack Old Salt Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: lake worth Best Catch: 25lb codfish 5 yrs old first hanger Posts: 4,456	True if rec fishing could never have an inpact on a fish stock why have any rec limits. __________________ Either we can be a part of the solution or we can be the victims of a decision.

02-05-2008, 10:26 PM	#187 (permalink)
Broadbill-Pro Grander Join Date: Jan 2006 Best Catch: When I look at a Commercial Fishing Vessel I see 300 million Americans and you only see the Crew Posts: 1,219	Jim, You fail to see the benefit of commercial fishing to the non-fishing community. I see a resource divided by all Americans and you see it divided by user groups. The comparison obviously was in reference to commercial vs recreational. Last edited by Broadbill-Pro : 02-06-2008 at 05:50 AM.

02-06-2008, 11:03 AM	#188 (permalink)
The BEAST Charter Captain Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Miami/upper Keys Boat: 2007 WorldCat 330TE / 300 Suzuki's Best Catch: every catch is my best catch Occupation: charter captain Posts: 796	I've seen the "benefit" of commercial fishing or should I say commercial benefitting from fishing. Over the last 3 decades I've witnessed plenty. I've seen repeated exploitation... Grouper, Snapper, Redfish, Snook, Jewfish, Mullet, Kingfish, to name a few of the most obvious. When the stocks are at an unprofitable bottom, they move on to the next species and create a new market for them, as evidenced Amberjack, the most recent target. Here are a couple of quotes I've heard from ol' Salts, that stick firmly in my mind. They reflect the true mentality of fish for sale fishing... "If it fetches 35 cents a pound, kill it!" ... "If we don't catch 'em, someone else will!"... The only thing you saw was 300 million American wallets!!!! If they re-open the FEC you will probably return to your humanitarian role once again... feeding the masses. You're a saint! Be careful, you may fall off that pedestal you've perched upon. __________________ Capt. Jim, The BEAST 2007 WorldCat 330TE / 300 Suzuki's

02-06-2008, 12:31 PM	#189 (permalink)
Tuna Devil Grander Join Date: Nov 2005 Occupation: Pirate Posts: 1,834	Jim, I'll be the first to say it out loud.......... You are an A$$hole. But you already knew that if you actually read the crap you write. By the way, how's that column coming? Look out behind you! __________________ What do you mean I'm not kind? I'm just not your kind.

02-05-2008, 12:42 PM	#182 (permalink)
dring Lines In Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 31	lets not even bring up right whales.

02-05-2008, 02:40 PM	#185 (permalink)
Broadbill-Pro Grander Join Date: Jan 2006 Best Catch: When I look at a Commercial Fishing Vessel I see 300 million Americans and you only see the Crew Posts: 1,219	Justin the derail is justified! If we all could be as innocent as some on here believe they are, it would be a perfect world. The attitude that if you kill a hundred fish and I kill one, mine does not matter is idiotic. It may be only one fish, but one times a thousand anglers may be the real problem. There is nothing that can be said to disprove your theory, we can go on any wreck or reef off Broward and bend a rod a hundred times per day. The result will be less than 5 barely legal size fish. Pollution is not stunting their growth, hooks are.

02-06-2008, 12:47 PM	#190 (permalink)
Broadbill-Pro Grander Join Date: Jan 2006 Best Catch: When I look at a Commercial Fishing Vessel I see 300 million Americans and you only see the Crew Posts: 1,219	Jim, I may fall off, but you will never knock me off. Let's clear the air here a bit, you exploit fish to earn a living. Even if you released everything you catch, you still put a hook in the water with the uncertainty that your catch will survive. There are no degrees of wrong to a moral man. My morals allow me to take from the sea, yours only allow you and your kind to. If that is not a pedistal your standing on, then what is.

02-06-2008, 12:57 PM	#191 (permalink)
quack quack Old Salt Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: lake worth Best Catch: 25lb codfish 5 yrs old first hanger Posts: 4,456	Jim you are painting every commercial fisherman with the same brush. I understand your being upset with LLers coming back in to the closed areas.But now it is every commercial fisherman that ever lived and I take great offense to that. __________________ Either we can be a part of the solution or we can be the victims of a decision.

02-06-2008, 05:10 PM	#192 (permalink)
The BEAST Charter Captain Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Miami/upper Keys Boat: 2007 WorldCat 330TE / 300 Suzuki's Best Catch: every catch is my best catch Occupation: charter captain Posts: 796	QQ, Quit twisting my words!!!!!!!! I never said every commercial fisherman that ever lived!!!!!!!! Don't get pizzed at me if you misinterpret the meaning of my post. There is no other way to describe the division other than in general categories. Our society labels everybody! NMFS affixed these labels also! Some individuals fit the picture to a T... others don't and, unfortunately, get lumped in. There are, in fact, good and bad in both "groups". There are too many recreational fisherman in South Dade that still can't fathom that the ocean is not a bottomless pit. Generations of this thinking is hard to convince otherwise. I was citing examples from the past... experiences with Ol' Salts fishing pound nets, gill nets, blue crabbers, and pat & tong oystermen that I knew on the Chesepeake Bay in Poquoson Virginia. Hardened Baymen! This thread was derailed into a discussion about Snapper/Grouper and other reef fishes... the thread took a direction which didn't have a flippin' thing to do with Swordfishing in the FEC. Don't blame me! __________________ Capt. Jim, The BEAST 2007 WorldCat 330TE / 300 Suzuki's Last edited by The BEAST : 02-06-2008 at 05:12 PM.

02-06-2008, 06:52 PM	#195 (permalink)
Gaitor Hooked Up Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Palm Beach Gardens,FL Boat: 25 ft HydraSports Best Catch: 150 lb Pacific Sail, 100 lb Tarpon from the surf Occupation: Old Retired Fart Posts: 558	I tried to stay out of this, but the one constant observed ... whatever side of the fence you're on is .... It'S ALL ABOUT THE BUCKS! I'm done now .... back into lurk status. No flames necessary.

02-06-2008, 06:57 PM	#196 (permalink)
Tuna Devil Grander Join Date: Nov 2005 Occupation: Pirate Posts: 1,834	Yeast, Sounds like you got demoted? Every other week by choice? No-it was a very un-veiled attempt at humor. Just remember, I'm so bright my Dad calls me son. __________________ What do you mean I'm not kind? I'm just not your kind.

02-06-2008, 07:34 PM	#198 (permalink)
Disco Lady Grander Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,931	Ñoooooooooooooo

02-06-2008, 07:38 PM	#199 (permalink)
Tuna Devil Grander Join Date: Nov 2005 Occupation: Pirate Posts: 1,834	Dear Yeast, I have read your really dark words in your latest post. I still think that you have been demoted. I am sorry for your loss. No, really. Best regards, farewell, tight lines, bon appetit, catch 'em up -- I look forward to your next spewing. Bon Soir -Senor TD __________________ What do you mean I'm not kind? I'm just not your kind.