Lesson learned using Spectra Braid

[RiskTaker]

Guys:

Got a call last Thursday to go out for a late afternoon to sundown trolling fishing trip.

Usually I will run a large to medium planer as the "poor man's downrigger" style, with approximately 60 ft. of 300# mono clipped to the planer and tied to a cleat on the boat. This particular day I decided to be a little more flexible to be able to vary the depth of the planer, a little deeper. So I rigged the planer directly to an auxillary rod (But still "poor man downrigger style") One of my previous line configurations involved tying the spectra mainline loop directly to a snap swivel. So that's what I did for the planer: I took off the heavy wind-on leader, and looped a snap swivel directly to the spectra terminal loop.

My thinking was that the spectra was very thin and would slice through the water easier than a 200 lb. mono wind-on to enable the sled to dig deeper.

Basically, the specctra line snapped right at the ring of the snap swivel (after about 60-90 minutes of faster trolling). There goes the planer... deep six.

Granted there was a lot of pressure on the line because we were trolling at 6-8 knots. The rod was bent over good and I had to set the drag to full in addition to tightening the preset substantially. Was actually a better job for an 80 wide. (Or even a real down-rigger, imagine that). So I would say that there was a sustained resistance of at least 30 lbs.

The line linkage chafed away right at the junction of the ring of the snap swivel, or perhaps the rubbing of the double-end snap swivel caused the chafing. Either way it was a failure, so I cannot use that method anymore. I mentioned this situaton to Luis as I was exchanging some fishing equipment. He immediately told me that spectra will generally fail in this situation and that you have to use mono. Alrighty then, no argument based upon my recent experience. I may try it again using a smaller planer but I will be very suspicious of the connection.

Ok - so that was my lesson learned. Figured I will share it with y' all.

No laughing from the Guajiros, :roflmao: : I may just go ahead and spool up some additonal line to the Yo-Yo for my planer line and forget about using the rod approach. Right now it is just a preset amount that goes on a small spool.

[Relentless33]

I was waiting for this story, lol

Would this be the same consideration for swordfishing ??

[RiskTaker]

No, not in my case since I always use a wind-on leader. The ring of the snap swivel is attached to mono and crimped. In that situation, the braid connection is a loop-to loop.

My failure example, was a direct connection between spectra loop and the ring of the snap swivel, loop slipped into ring then looped over swivel. (Maybe, an alternate attachment method could make a difference.)

[Relentless33]

What if it was crimped to a ball bearing swivel like I do for swording ??

[RiskTaker]

I have never tried crimping braid before; although, I believe that there are crimps that are used to quickly create serve connections with braid over mono, or perhaps braid latched to braid.

But I hear that they can corrode and let go if left on a spool for too long.

If I were adament to persue this configuration, the first thought that comes to mind would be a really short wind-on. (Loop-2-loop specctra connection with a mono to swivel ring crimped connection.

Now, that you got me going, I am starting to think that the simple downrigger discs are where its at. Maybe planers are an obslete novelty. Let me go see the price comparisons and see how it works. I' ll let you know later what I come up with.

I gave away my nice Penn downrigger to a friend a few years back after the sale of my power boat. You can probably tell that I am trying to get around using another one.

[Relentless33]

lol, we had one on the old boat but not on the new one.

[jerry]

RT, you have not learned your lesson? Braid cannot handle any abrasion whatsoever, that would include rubbing against the eye of a snap swivel.
:shock: :shock: :shock:

[Relentless33]

lol, What else is there that is useful to know before we try it out on the TLD we will be respooling with hopefully, JB 50 or 80 lb ???

[The BEAST]

I disagree that braid can't resist abrasion. Ask any snook fisherman fishing around jetties, piers and bridges if he would rather use braid or mono.

The braid failure at the swivel is a direct indication of an improperly tied knot. There are very few knots that will hold 100% with braid. The palomar knot is one if it is tied correctly. Attention to detail in this case.

Capt. Jim
The BEAST

[RiskTaker]

Jerry:

Are you saying that I still have not learned my lesson? :shock: If so, we're going to have to discuss this over a Red Stripe or some fine Appleton. I am heading JA way sometime soon: will advise. At least I somehow recognized that the braid failed due to some kind of sustained chafing action.

There were some powerful and sustained forces going on here. Maybe vibration caused it or perhaps rubbing by one end of the double swivels that slid down the planer line. Still not sure what exactly caused the wear and tear. But is did wear exactly at the end points, not an inch off to one side or the other.

Capt. Jim: just as a comment on that failure. That was not a tied knot failure, in case you did not catch the description on the first post. That was a spliced loop. The spliced loop was fed through the ring of the swivel then looped over the snap to capture. Perhaps that style may still be called a knot, I am just lacking the name.

Perhaps it is a known weak mechanism to make line connects to metal rings. I need to do some research and inquiries to figure it out. (Maybe there is a better way to make such an attachment with a loop. So one thing for me to consider here: perhaps a tied knot such as the Palomar may actually be more resilient than the loop connection that I used. (edit -Capt. Jim - I did a little research... The Palomar is an excellent knot for braid, as you suggested. See the note below for the offshore swivel twist: I believe this knot would be the superior connection for a double line application, such as the spliced loop or Bimini twist, Palomar for a single line application. - end edit)

Still learning.... Maybe mono is the more correct interconnect application.

If anybody knows please advise. (edit - Oh, I know, the offshore swivel knot would probably work out better, for a spectra loop to swivel ring connection. Jerry Brown actually suggested it. I used to use this all the time: but you/I eventually get lazy and fall back into primordial habits, like the improved fisherman's knot. :???: . Now this type of knot (offshore swivel) is not easily undoable, so you will have to consider it permanent, until you cut the loop to make it again. - end edit.

http://www.britishcongerclub.org.uk/...wivel_knot.htm

I was pretty confident that there was nothing stronger than the spliced loop double finger trap, perhaps it is 200% strong and the weakest part is where it transitions back to single line hollow core. Indeed, the splice did not fail but it was the bending of the line around the metal ring, that let go.

I do that style all the time with hooks and jigs and it is pretty darn durable for those applications. But then again I have not had 30 lbs. of pressure applied for hours straight while the connection beats through the water at 8 knots.

It seems like we are onto something here. Different forms of abrasion mechanisms.

Jerry says no abrasion. (He has told me of deep dropping or bottom fishing stories where the braid cannot withstand the abrasion of the reef or rocks on the bottom. Wire or mono resists that best, compared to braid.

Capt. Jim says that spectra braid is stronger than mono for that jetty example. I am not sure how this situation actually plays out in this example. Is it possible that one may be using a braid that is actually stronger (lbs. test) than a monofilament. And that extra strength may be what is saving the night. Or is there more inherent strength from braid line perhaps just sliding by an abrasive obstacle for just a fleeting moment. (Transient sliding versus a "chafing" situation.)

I am not quite sure, yet. Perhaps we will figure it out.

Relentless: what else? If you spool it yourself, you may want to use some double sided sticky tape at the base of the spool, if you do not have a line nub, and learn to tie the right knot on to the spool. Read up on the Jerry Brown web-site or Wind-ons by Basil. There are some good pointers found on those sites for braid spectra braid usage. Of course there are some tackle dealers that will do this for you when you buy the materials from them.

[Relentless33]

I was planning on having Tommy Greene do it most likely..... I know it would be put on correct and should have no problems, what do you think about the idea of getting the reels from 'who I am getting them from' and having Custom Rod and Reel most likely re setup all of our rods

[The BEAST]

Risk Taker,

What I was trying to relay is that braid is very limited to its possibilities of connection, be it a loop or a knot. There are very few knots or connections that are applicable to braid with 90% or better strength. Braid lacks in utility compared to mono in this respect.

Capt. Jim
The BEAST

[RiskTaker]

Capt. Jim:

Yep, Got you on that: I agree. In the meantime I was doing some research on the knots. For some reason I cannot keep all of them in my head: only 3 or 4 at a time. See my edited post above for the gory details.

Your recommendation for the Palomar was an excellent choice for braid. I further delved into the matter and believe that the offshore swivel knot is the untimate knot for braid when using a double line application. Using a spliced loop method, I would venture to say that it is 100%+, due to the splitting of forces on the double line. Perhaps a better design at chafe resistance as well, or at least the hard angle turn.

Thanks for the feedback on this discussion. I think it has moved me foreward a notch. Perhaps anyone else that is browsing this subject.

[Relentless33]

"Perhaps anyone else browsing the subject", was that intended for me ??

lol

Im just trying to sit back and watch so I can learn as much as I can

[Tuna Devil]

How about Chafing gear. :?:

[Relentless33]

Im a little confused......... :???:

Im hearing to have a backer of mono and the rest the JB ??

Im also hearing to have the JB all the way to a topshot of mono ??

It confuses me because the TLD 50's we have now are backed with a braid

And your saying the JB 130 over 80 because they have about the same price, if we had a tackleshop do it, I dont think its going to be the same price so Im going to look more into it.

Thanks

Relentless

[RiskTaker]

Relentless:

You should not be confused at all.

You had expressed that long line length is one of your objectives. That said, you will not use a monofilament backer in order to maximize the amount of braid you have on the spool. Maybe you would even prefer to spool with 80# braid. But hear this out first.

The reason for selecting 130# JBHC for a 50 # class reel capable of drag settigs of around 25-30 lbs., is because of the cheaper cost; leveraged by both line cost and how you partition the spool out.

It is substantially cheaper, not just about the same.

Jerry Brown Hollow Core 130 LB TEST 2500 YDS - $285

Jerry Brown Hollow Core 80 LB TEST 2500 YDS - $485

Do you see what I mean?

The next twist is that you can spool up 3 50 Wide reels with the 130 #: 830 yds. x 3. With the 80 lb. test you could only spool 2 reels completely at 1000 yds. each, or balance it 3-ways at 830 yds. and add a supplement of mono.

So the cost of line could be as low as $100 per reel with 130# or it can soar upward to ~$200 per reel, depending on how you want to dice it.

For me the choice sorted itself out after crunching the numbers. I spooled up entirely with the 130#, with my choice of wind-on leader (loop-2-loop connection) as my mono top shot.

If you catch a very large fish, technically you could view your 50# class reel as a "poor mans" 130# class stand-up outfit but only if you pack it with 130#.

That's what convinced me: but understand that I am a contrarian element. irat:

[Relentless33]

RT: You said the 130 lb at 850 yds on a Tiagra 50 Wide ??

The website said 1000, or are you spooling it at 830 just so you can barely finish the spool ???

I dont think it would matter with that because it would be spooled by a tackle shop

[The BEAST]

Relentless 33,

I'm sorry but I must disagree with Risk Taker on this one. To begin with the object of using mono on the bottom is twofold. #1 it stretches and grips the spool without slipping; unless your reel has a tie pin, you risk the slick braids slipping on the reel spool. This has happened to me before when I have tried filling my reels totally with braid. #2. Since braid has no stretch the mono also acts as a cushion for the spool while providing more grip for the braid. You don't need much mono but I would NEVER spool braid again without at least 2-3 wraps of mono on the bottom.

I use 80# braid only because I have very large hands (size 17 ring) and my close up vision is not what it once was so 50# is more difficult to work with at night for me. Since you should only be using about 12-15# of drag what is the purpose of using 130# line. I believe Swordfishing is all about line capacity moreso than line strength. Yes, it would be cheaper but if and when you hook up that once in a lifetime fish and it spools you, you will be kicking yourself in the hind parts for many years to come. Fishing 130# and pushing the drag up to stop a fish from spooling you will most assuredly end up with pulled hooks. Braid has such an excellent life span that over time the difference in price is negligiblle in per trip costs. If cost is the major factor you can reverse the line periodically by reloading on your reel front to back, inside out, reversed, or whatever term applies and remarking it.

Remember if the fish takes you into 2000' of water and sounds to the bottom DIRECTLY under the boat you already have 667 yds of line out. I would recommend using as much 50 or 80# as my reel will hold with about 800 yds of total line at the minimum.

Just my opinion
Capt. Jim
The BEAST

[Relentless33]

Heres what Im thinking: Honestly I would rather have a 80 lb JB then 130, why ? Because I want to go out there in the middle of the day and drop a sandbag down to the bottom and break it free. Personally, I dont think 130 is neccessary. But I do think that it is absolutely insane to pay 200 more dollars for a lighter size line.

We're not making a move on anything yet so im just learning as much as I can, We'll see how it plays out for the price of the line in the tackleshop.

Until then, Thanks a ton for all of the help,

Relentless