2 stroke or 4 stroke ?

[RiskTaker]

Guys:

Aren't you glad when everything works. RT

[Broadbill-Pro]

thanks to everyone who gave advice!

this thread has many 2S and 4S fans. there are also many opinions on what brand to buy. all the manufacturers had positive and negative's with the exception of suzuki. nowhere on this thread is there a negative about suzuki, 4S yes, but suzuki no. i have many friends who make their living in one way or another from boats and engines. none have had a bad experience to relay about suzuki 4S either and the extended 6 year warranty is a bonus.

the final test was to see if a pair of suzuki 250's has the balls to push a heavy boat. took a 31' ocean master with a pair of suzuki 250 / 4 strokes out this morning. from a hole shot the boat was fast to get on plane without trimming. at 4000 rpm speed was 30 mph and fuel consumption was 8.5 gph for each engine. 4500 rpm was +/- 35 mph and fuel was 9.8 gph. top speed at 6000 rpm was just under 45 mph, did not check fuel consumption at full rpm. the trim tabs were never used during the trial, i assume with proper trim and props, a little better performance may be possible in calm water.

that with the fact that the dealer is a mile away and has a history of good service made for an easy decision.

one other thing to mention. the dealer has sold about 120 suzuki 4S since last june, he admitts that a few engines have come back for repairs but he states that all of those repairs were installation issues. he says that manufacturer warranty repairs are nearly non-existant. hope my new engines add to that.

[CaptKen]

Well I waited till everybody tooted thier horn, I have a yamaha 225 4, I love it ! I would never own another 2 stroke ! I have heard of 2 reports of commerical use, one with over 4000 hours thats right 4000 and another with over 5000 and not 1 thing wrong. Anyone who has run a 2 stroke for any lenghth of time knows that if you you get 2500 hours you did good.
Spark plugs- My neighbor with HPDI's , plugs every 30-50 hours has spent $5200.00 on plugs on the 2100 hour life of 2 HPDI,s , then new power heads cause He wore um out, new heads eat plugs left and right.
I changed mine at 500 hours just because and they were like brand new.
Oxygen sensors- gawd only knows how much
Oil- those days are over, 6 quarts every 100 hours, Try and track how many GALLONS a 2 stroke will eat in a 100 hours .lol
Quiet- You have to look at the tach to see if its runnin.
No Smoke! Just Bump the key and its runnin !
The power thing every one cries over, just remember 250 horse is 250 horse whether its 2 stroke or 4, The key is the right prop, I can prop a 2 stroke to suck getting out of the hole just like they do with the 4 stroke on the TV commerical.

[CONTENDERCHRIS]

70 mph boats are for guys who need the extra time to catch'em

great line Broadbill.

I have 1000 hours on my 250 hpdi's

1 blown lower unit (probably line in the prop)
1 new power head (carbon build up)
1 oil pump go bad (they go bad at about 1000 hours)
It was all warranty but still a pain in the ass!!!
This was over 2 and a half years

but still wouldnt trade them for any other manufacturer.

One aspect of Suzukis and Etecs are service. From what I hear there is little or none. Although im sure more mechanics will become certified to work on them.

Yamaha mechanics are all over the place.

My 2 cents:

1)get yamaha 250 four strokes, they are woth the extra $$

2)do not get new, and unproven technology do not believe the hipe and marketing that the manufacturers put out

3)wait until an engine has been out for a while , they all have recalls

4)do not get any Mercury engines, performance is good but something will break (they belong on bass and race boats)



Everyone swears the engine tey run is the best, so you probably will feel the same with your choice.

[Shark Tagger]

I love my yamy 4 stroke. Speed and acceleration is not an issue for me. I prefer efficiency

Good luck

[CHRIS]

I have a pair of 05 Yamaha 250 four stokes and am very happy with them. They are fuel efficient,don't burn oil and I can actually have a conversation with someone on the way out!

[Another Grand]

I have a 250 ETec........my first one was an 05........the plugs kept fouling and had various other issues......ETec realized my motor was a lemon and replaced it with a brand new 2006 motor so if your wondering about their customer service they seem alright. Ill be honest there was a time when I hated my ETec byt I now love it. I dont know what kind of boat those other guys got or which motor but mine barely eats gas and barely eats oil.....I opted to always put in the synthetic and that may have something to do with it. My opinion however is any motor that starts every time is a good motor.

[Randy]

Im just a poor workin guy ! I have a 351 Windsor Ford Engine (I upgraded from 302) with a Mercruiser Alpha drive that has a cruise speed of 20 and a max of 30 . It has a 122 gallon fuel tank . It has only a 2 barrel carb (4 would add 35 hp and get me to 35-40 mph but increase fuel ) BUT ... The leaded engine cover makes me look at the tach to see if its running at idle. I go to Bimini on 30 gallons of gas and can stay three days running everywhere constantly and come back without refueling if i wish. We burn 30-40 gallons per sword trip (80-85 miles GPS). A dolphin trip 15 miles out for an entire day trolling is 25-30 gallons. I go out 1-3 days per week and bought and rebuilt this engine for 1200.00 5 years ago . It still has the same plugs from the rebuild . Hours ? Thousands . The engine and large fuel tank are low in the hull making the center of gravity below water line so the boat doesnt like to rock . The fuel cost to run it lets me go out at a whim ! It's extremely reliable with a cruise RPM at 3000-3200 there's no strain on anything. I tend to watch what the comercial guys use , the guys that are out EVERY day all year. They have to have a long term drive with minimum maintenance and if I didnt have to trailer id own a straight shaft inboard diesel. I dont want to ever want to have to consider fuel costs as to whether i can go out or not. I can go out anytime for lunch $. It's a poor workin guys boat . But it works . I tell all my fishin/dive buds "you see somethin shiny let me know, I got some 100 grit paper and i'll knock it down" Hahahah ,It is ugly ! But for what I like to do , go out whenever I want , very stable, quiet , and never a drop of water over the bow unless seas go over 4 ft it is beautiful to me. It's on a new aluminum float on trailer so I fish/dive anywhere on the west/East coasts and the Keys. It's a poor workin mans boat. I think everyone is different and have different requirements. Mine is a comfortable dry ride out to the fishin grounds burning as little fuel as possible with minimum rocking when i get there with minimum maintenance with maximum hours before a rebuild/replacement . Those 4 strokes are lookin interesting but they're new technology and i gotta see how they act after 3-5000 hours. The 2 strokes are fast but burn fuel like a fire hose and are loud but maybe the 4s if they prove themselves with the test of time. I'll watch. Randy

[CHRIS]

Hey Randy I had an oldie like yours. I rebuilt from the bottom up a 1979 Mako 231. New tanks and all. We dropped a high performance chevy 351 small block w/ aluminum manifolds and risers and heat exchanger. My dad and I did that back in 99 but I left all the original parts in it so little by little had to replace starters, electronic distributer, alternators, fuel pumps. Basically all but I got tired of always doing something new on the damn thing all the time. Let me tell you that jumping in the bilge with a hot engine in 3 to 5's ain't much fun. So I put it on the boat trader and had client on the 1st day. It was a new boat by the time I was done and to this day I can remember what a nice boat it was in the slop. I now have one bigger boat with the 2 new 4 stokes and I haven't even had to think about the engines. I think my next boat will be a twin deisel but I need to make some serious dough.
Chris

[Randy]

Yeah I know Chris, Id like a single diesel straight inboard (technology is great now and Sea Tow is "vigilant" ) . Boats are big $ . One of my buds has a 31 Jupiter with 2-250s but it stays on the lift. The fuel is astronomical and we just cant have thrashin swordfish , harpoon, lead weights, etc. damaging the deck ! I got a nice chunk outa the engine cover from trip before last where the beast decided to go Postal AFTER in the boat. On this old boat a "Oh Well" is easy. Last night we went from 5 pm till 7 am and used 1/4 tank (32 gallons) . Most everyone went in before the bite took off at 11:30 when three rods went off within minutes. We were somewhere off I think Boca from Hollywood before we started in. "fish in the bag" . I'd be really hesitant about buyin a new boat with this type of use (I take 5-6 divers with 100+ cft steel tanks) and the sword fishin . It's especially rough on a boat. Teaser has battle scars all over it. There was a guy around the 50 last night talkin to another boat at 3-4 am with dead batteries askin another guy to "Tow him in" or give him a jump. The helper was tryin to reach SeaTow by satellite phone but from what i could glean from the conversation i think the guy had no tow insurance. Can you imagine the price of a tow from the 50 with no insurance ? Holy Moley !! Sea Tow, never leave port without it. Randy

[billfisher]

I'd forget Outboards and go inboard BUT if I had to go outboards I'd go with the 4 strokes. Bad experience with old Evinrude Fichts and now with Yamaha 2 stroke OX66 (both rebuilt before 600 hours)! 4 strokes no smoke, no oil (change like a car engine); more gas efficient; and supposed to be better overall technology. Done with outboards myself though.

Good Luck!

Sincerely,

Billfisher

[NSBsailsandtails]

i work at a yamaha outboard dealer and i love everyone of their engines. the only down side to 4 sroke is the maintance is expensive and ive seen 3 ECU's(computer) on 4 strokes go bad, one engine had 800hrs on it. you just got to keep up on maintance and dont let them sit over a long period of time.

[Randy]

I personally saw Billfishers Yamahas go at 500 hours. TWO brand new Yamaha 250s with blown powerheads within 100 hours of each other. They were set up +maintained extensively by Yamaha precisely at Yamaha intervals . Not only were the maintenance intervals strictly adhered to but the normal maintenance while UNDER WARRANTY cost sometimes 400.00-1000.00 for the two engines each time with constant "Your oxygen sensors are bad, You need new water pumps , etc. etc." All within the warranty maintenance period ! Then around 500 hours and within 100 hours of each other "CLUNK, CLUNK"! These engines were on a Brand New 31' Jupiter . Both engines are rebuilt now another 8000.00 and for sale anyone interested. Im just a workin guy , I cant do this , The 4 strokes im gonna watch and see how they do at 4-5000 hours without major repair or overhaul. All + any of them do well when new . Everyone i talk to who has the 4 strokes says they are great but when i ask how many hours they tell me 4-5-6-700 ! I gotta get 4000 at least. If i keep an engine just four years (only 4) goin out just two days a week ( i usually go 3) Thats 4160 hours in only 4 years ! I gotta get at least 4 years from an engine that costs 11-15000.00 ! Huh ? Anyone with 4000+ hours on their outboard without a major repair please post. Billfishers Yamas scared me off big time. They cost big bucks in maintenance while UNDER WARRANTY and blew JUST PAST WARRANTY ! Anyone with a 4 stroke with minimum 4000 hours (4-5 years ,10 hrs day, 2 days a week)(just weekend warrior) with no major repair please post. I just helped my bud build a comercial tug , we dropped in twin 671 diesels that were built in 1967 and have never been rebuilt. They run 10-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week . They run like the day they were built . Still , as we speak! If I take the cost of Billfishers 2 engines 12000.00 each (24000.00) divide by the 500 hours they lasted and if I throw in the rediculous maintenance costs thats 48 dollars AN HOUR these engines cost for 500 hours they lasted not including fuel and oil . AND THEY BURN SOME SERIOUS FUEL ! I gotta see some measley 4000 hour + engines goin strong without major repair before i buy these. 10 years goin just 2 days a week is 10,400 hours. I'll settle for just 4000 hours (weekend warrior) . 12000.00 for 4 years = 3000.00 $ a year =57.69 PER WEEK before fuel, oil ,maintenance. But 500 hours ? Yeow !! Randy

[wahoo51]

I'm definately no expert but i don't know of any modern engine that will last 4000hrs. Diesels included.
I've attached a web address from Dave Pascoe.
I doubt any of us know more than he does.
Read the engine articles and you will see where my doubt comes from.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/articleslist.htm

When i go see a boat i'd like to buy i add the cost of rebuilding the engines to the purchase price if the engines have more than 500hrs. If that No. is over mkt. value then i am paying too much. This will give you an idea of how i feel about engine longevity in a boat.

If we all used our boats every day, maintained them perfectly, never let our bottoms foul up, and always kept them at a low cruise speed we may see FWC inboards lasting 4-5-6000hrs.

As far as 2 or 4 stroke outboards go I also see it as a matter of economics. 2s are cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, and cheaper to rebuild.

My .02

[fishango]

I prefer diesels all the way.
I now run a 3208 single engine Cat. Sure my top speed is only 20 mph but my fuel consumption is only 5 gallons an hour, 2.5 if I cut down to 12 mph. I am always running between St John and St Croix (40 miles) Once a diesel starts it will usually run until you shut her off, never a plug problem. Yes you do have to keep an eye on the raycor and watch for water.
With the price of fuel topping out at over $3.25 gallon on St John VI. I need to be watchful on my fuel. This 3208 has 5806 hours as of last night ! I hope to get over 10,000 hours ( keep your oil CLEAN)
I had a 250 Yammy 2 stroke. She ran good, went through two power heads and LOTS of gas ! Cruising she drank 2 gallons an hour. the St Croix run was a 20 gallon minimum ( I now do it on 12 gallons)
My neigbor has the 115 Yammy 4 stroke. He swears by em, 3 miles a gallon at cruising speed.
There are no Suzuki dealers here and we know we do need service, so they are not an option here. The Etechs have been getting good reviews with the owners I have talked with. The only problem here with them is that the mechanic who does the warranty work is a real butt head.
If and when I repower it will be Yanmars.
Good luck in your decision
Tight lines
Fishango

[fishango]

I prefer diesels all the way.
I now run a 3208 single engine Cat. Sure my top speed is only 20 mph but my fuel consumption is only 5 gallons an hour, 2.5 if I cut down to 12 mph. I am always running between St John and St Croix (40 miles) Once a diesel starts it will usually run until you shut her off, never a plug problem. Yes you do have to keep an eye on the raycor and watch for water.
With the price of fuel topping out at over $3.25 gallon on St John VI. I need to be watchful on my fuel. This 3208 has 5806 hours as of last night ! I hope to get over 10,000 hours ( keep your oil CLEAN)
I had a 250 Yammy 2 stroke. She ran good, went through two power heads and LOTS of gas ! Cruising she drank 12 gallons an hour. the St Croix run was a 20 gallon minimum ( I now do it on 12 gallons)
My neigbor has the 115 Yammy 4 stroke. He swears by em, 3 miles a gallon at cruising speed.
There are no Suzuki dealers here and we know we do need service, so they are not an option here. The Etechs have been getting good reviews with the owners I have talked with. The only problem here with them is that the mechanic who does the warranty work is a real butt head.
If and when I repower it will be Yanmars.
Good luck in your decision
Tight lines
Fishango

[Randy]

Hey Wahoo, That tug is runnin as we speak. Your welcome to go down and stand next to it and watch. The old Metro busses engines used to come with a 1 million mile warranty . I dont know if they still do but they used to. I personally used to be a Mercedes mechanic and can tell you from experience a rebuild on a Mercedes diesel motor at 200,000 miles usually was just knock the glaze off the cylinder walls and install new rings, there was no appreciable wear on the cylinder walls to warrant boring. Those diesels turning 2200 rpm last a looong time . I build my own motors , I dont run fresh water cooling because i run them at 3200 rPM cruise with a WOT 38-4200 . I go out from 2-3 days a week . There's no sense fresh water cooling it as they always wear out before rust destroys them. I get 5-7 years from a engine . If you do the math you'll see in 5 years i average 5200 hours give or take. The engine im running right now is at 3 years. 3120 hours. Give or take a few hundred . Come listen to it purr. I buy a new rebuilt 351 windsor (900.00) and tear it down. I go throught it myself changing everything to marine grade , checkin all clearances, and components and put it back together myself using marine gaskets. Then 5-6 coats of urethane paint and it goes back in for another 5-7 years.Total cost for the new rebuilt engine around 1300.00 . 1300.00 for 5-7 years. I do run stainless marine manifolds , The cast iron only last 3-4 years and i got tired of changing them. Your welcome to come see it , Rod chucker and I built it a little over 3 years ago. price for this engine 5.00 a week over the estimated 5 year time. 3.57 a week if it lasts 7. You welcome to come see it. Basic engineering is the faster it turns the faster it tears up. If you take a marine mechanics class ask to see the video of a bearing at 6000 RPM. I expect 5000 hours from this one. If it blows i'll stick another in within 2 days price 1300.00. I dont know the mechanic your referring to but im sure theres plenty mechanics that can refute him especially those that maintain diesels in applications that never shut them down except to change the oil. Randy

[Randy]

Just asked Rick how many hours on the diesels since last rebuild, (10 yrs ago) They have over 15000 hours. The new John Deere Diesels ive been hearin good reports on but they are "new technology" and turning up buku RPMs . Im gonna have to wait till they hit some years before trusting them. Randy

[Broadbill-Pro]

diesels i can comment on. i personally put 38,000 hours on a 3408 Cat. before the first rebuild. only rebuilt it due to a feeling guilty. then blew it up 3 months later when a wave swamped the boat and filled the air intake, second rebuild at 39,000 hours

[SCOffshore]

Had em all. It just depends on what you feel like. The triton has twin Evinrude 4 Strokes (read as Suzuki) 1 minor problem in first 100 hrs, since no problems at all (if you don't consider people trying to start them when they are running because they are so quiet!). Had a 225 Ficht on the back of the Mako was a sunk engine rebuilt, replacing bearings and electical parts, ran like a champ no problem, an etec is just a modified ficht. I know prefer a straight inboard, for me a little slower, but great fuel mileage! I just bought my Shammie (inboard) and was looking and looking, but one of the things that put the deal in motion was the idea of what it cost to replace the engine if needed, 3-5k for an inboard, of which I have 1 or for the same size boat w/ outboards 13-25k each. The math was pretty simple.